Interesting story about a "stolen" railcar. Anybody here have any more details they care to share?

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/jun/06242004/business/business.asp
davew833@yahoo.com

> Interesting story about a "stolen"
> railcar. Anybody here have any more details
> they care to share?

This points out why you shouldn't have privately owned rail vehicles in your museum collection. Many horror tales abound in the industry about the owner who shows up and says "I'm gonna take all my marbles and go home."

That's why we have a firm policy against privately owned property at the museum. There are also insurance issues involved with this.

Peace,

Jack


East Troy Electric Railroad
jftrolley@aol.com

This story, along with the story of Valley 97 and other privately-owned rolling stock, begs the question:

How does anyone PROVE they own a piece of rolling stock?

Does Bennett Levin have a title issued by some Department of Motor Vehicles for each of his E-units? Does he have anything besides a cancelled check to CSX and another to NS? What about the business cars? they aren't "motor vehicles", so who issues the title?

If someone [ANYONE! PLEASE!!] bought the East Broad Top, and then someone else produced a "bill of sale" from the 1960s saying that the railroad sold them the "Orbisonia" business car and 2-8-2 #16, and that the Kolvachiks and Stanley Hall had an "understanding" for decades and the car and 16 were not included in the purchase, what the heck could you do?

If the Strasburg RR decides somehow to sell N&W 475 or CN 7312, how do we know that Linn Moedinger or the railroad's treasurer is the rightful agent or representative--and not, say, the estate of an original shareholder?

If the Baltimore Streetcar Museum decides to acquire a Baltimore car from Seashore, how do we know they have the legal right to sell it?

How can Ross Rowland prove he still owns C&O 614, and not, say, a bank holding a mortgage, or a railroad claiming back fees? Ditto Andy Muller and Reading 2102 and GM&N 425? (No direct insult to Messrs. Rowland or Muller, I'm just using them as examples; they're welcome to chime in with their thoughts.)

The bitter reality is, we appear to be operating FAR too much on faith and handshakes in this field. It's also a reality that, for the most part, a piece of rolling stock is as much a money-eating liability as an asset. Unlike, say, an easily-liberated builder's plate--which is why I refuse to buy the things.

This point was driven home to me when I discovered that two certain "celebrity" locomotives had somehow, via separate and rather convoluted actions, passed into the "ownership" of a very close friend of mine. I went to him to ask if the reports were true (with good reason--I knew a potential operator for them). He replied, somewhat drolly and sarcastically, "Depends--are you offering to buy them from me, or presenting me with a storage or movement bill?" I don't actually know what he would have said if he hadn't known me for a decade first.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Alexander,

At my museum and any other that has its act together, a deed of gift is made out for each aftifact. States such such things as the builders number which in the case of a locomotive is carved into the frame of the machine.

a bill of sale will give a discription of an item sold when it is sold and who the parties that were involved.

The one for our ship Balclutha which is 256 feet long runs to four or five pages.

If this does not happen, people sue each other and put money in lawyers pockets and unnecessarily clog up the court house calendars.

paper work can be a pain in the rear end, but if yiu are buying anything larger than a breadbox you had better do it!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Alexander,

At my museum and any other that has its act together, a deed of gift is made out for each artifact. States such things as the builders number which in the case of a locomotive is carved into the frame of the machine.

A bill of sale will give a discription of an item sold when it is sold and who the parties that were involved.

The one for our ship Balclutha which is 256 feet long runs to four or five pages.

If this does not happen, people sue each other and put money in lawyers pockets and unnecessarily clog up the court house calendars.

Paper work can be a pain in the rear end, but if you are buying anything larger than a breadbox you had better do it!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

The Pacific Locomotive Association has association owned and privately owned equipment within our collection. We have had a policy that privately owned equipment is not allowed into the collection until there is a written contract between the equipment owner and the association. This establishes ownership and outlines what is expected by the two parties.

The contract has a standard format that can be modified to fit the owners individual needs but in general it says that the owner gets to store their equipment on association property at no charge if the association is allowed to use the equipment. There are clauses outlining the associations responsibilities to keep the equipment in operating condition - mainly ensuring that the cars meet FRA requirements for brake, wheel and safety appliances. Usually it is up to the owner to restore the equipment then the association maintains it. In cases where the association does restore private equipment then there is a clause requiring the owner to reimburse the association or remove parts used in the restoration if he or she removes the equipment from the collection.

This has worked well for the PLA in that members can buy a piece of equipment in cases where the association doesn't have the budget to do so. The main restriction that we have is that the equipment meets our mission statement. This prevents members from bringing pet projects in from all over the country (sorry GG1 fans, we don't want one).

Our Collections Committee has as one of it's tasks to document the ownership status of all of the equipment in the collection. If the equipment is association owned then we documented if it was donated or purchased and the previous owner. Hopefully it will keep us out of the problems other museums have described.

Now if someone can come up with a usable plan to control privately owned tools that are on property - nothing worse than going to use a tool and finding out that it is privately owned and the owner took it home last week.

Niles Canyon Railway
jmann@asyst.com

This begs yet another question,, Assuming for sake of argument that a deed/bill of sale has been provided for a given piece of equipment, and that unit is readily identifiable, so much the better. But, what about where a museum group were to acquire a given lot of spare parts, either through donation, sale, whatever.

I was involved in accquiring parts for Chicago rapid transit cars a few years back. We arranged with the railroad (Chicago Transit Authority) to come onto the property and remove whatever we felt we could best use from a pair of cars that were to be cut up for scrap. This entailed mostly windows, a few seats, misc cosmetic items mostly.
It was all done with a handshake and nothing on paper. Even had there been a gift deed or bill of sale, who's going to spend the time to list each specific part, when they're giving it away and as far as they're concerned, it's scrap anyways ?

There was/is no way to prove that those materials were gotten by proper/legal means, nor that the museum had any right to them.

How does a group protect against this ?
I know the quick answer is to insist on some form of documentation for protection, but it seems a bit much to insist too much when you're asking for a donation to begin with.

To even take it a bit further, how does one prove that your parts were the specific ones acquired legally ?

John

FoxValley@aol.com

Also a valid point. I have had it pointed out to me that a well-documented, by-the-book, insurance-paid auto accident repair can cost thousands, yet the same repair done for a simple check or cash, with a receipt scribbled on the back of a letterhead, can cost mere hundreds instead. I was involved in a court case where the insurance company sued the person who ran into me because he cost thousands for a dent you had to look twice to see, whereas my "totalled" car was repaired for $700 cash.

DOCUMENTATION COSTS MONEY OR TIME. That cost can make or break a donation.

However, there's a big difference between window frames, air horns, step boxes, etc. and a whole darn locomotive. "Dumpster-diving" probably doesn't require extensive written documentation, but a GG1, SD50, or MP54, on the other hand.....

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

From the legal perspective, the best thing to do when receiving a large lot of parts, etc. is to have an inventory taken by the donor and included in the Bill of Sale/Transfer. When the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway leased the Western and Atlantic Railroad of the State of Georgia in 1890, a full inventory of every item from locomotives and rolling stock to office furniture was made and attached to the lease. The inventory clearly indicated which items were turned over to the railroad and which were retained by the State of Georgia.

On the matter of transfer of railcars from railroad to museum/private ownership, there should be a Bill of Sale at a minimum. There should also be a transfer of title. I know that TVRM has at least one or the other (and often both) for each car owned by the railroad, particularly those passenger cars donated by Southern Railway.

awalker1829@yahoo.com

> On the matter of transfer of railcars from
> railroad to museum/private ownership, there
> should be a Bill of Sale at a minimum. There
> should also be a transfer of title.

We're going in circles here.............

WHAT TITLE?!?!? *IS* there such a thing?

What constitutes this title? Does the railroad create one? Is there a certificate from the manufacturer? Is any of this paperwork deemed acceptable in a court of law?

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Any piece of equipment with a manufacturer's (or builder's) serial number would have some sort of documentation. Whether it is a simple desk calculator, computer, or a full-size railroad car or locomotive there should be some piece of paper documenting the existence of the equipment.

In the event the original is misplaced, destroyed, or damaged the owner should execute an "affadavit of ownership" identifying the piece of equipment by description and the manufactuer's/builder's serial number. If the owner still has a copy of the sales invoice/receipt, referencing the receipt in the affadavit would be appropriate. -- Ray

> We're going in circles here.............

> WHAT TITLE?!?!? *IS* there such a thing?

> What constitutes this title? Does the
> railroad create one? Is there a certificate
> from the manufacturer? Is any of this
> paperwork deemed acceptable in a court of
> law?


raymondreter@aol.com

An excellent resource on these and other legal issues facing museums is "A Legal Primer on Managing Museum Collections" available from AAM and other sources. It covers many common scenarios; for example it has an entire chapter on "Objects Found in the Collections", the phrase commonly used in the museum profession to describe items that lack any significant documentation as to how they were added to a museum's collections.

This is not an uncommon occurrence in the museum world and the book gives specific advice on dealing with issues of claims being made against the museum as well as obligations in disposing of "objects found in the collections".

Well worth reading.

> We're going in circles here.............

> WHAT TITLE?!?!? *IS* there such a thing?

> What constitutes this title? Does the
> railroad create one? Is there a certificate
> from the manufacturer? Is any of this
> paperwork deemed acceptable in a court of
> law?


A Legal Primer on Managing Museum Collections
jsmatlak@earthlink.net

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some kind of ownership mess with C&O 2-8-4 2700 currently at Dennison, with several different parties claiming ownership?

I can speak to a few facts in this caseÂ…

Kyle believes he, with partners owns a railroad passenger car

He and his associates received a striped carbody (no trucks, no interior, and as a result the car has limited historic provenance, or value)

Kyle is an employee of the California State Railroad museum, but his ownership of this car predates that employment, and the car is not, nor has ever been owned by CSRM or stored at a CSRM owned facility.

I canÂ’t speak to the origin of the carbody or itÂ’s previous owners or ownership status.

It appears to me that the lawyers are suing anyone they can possibly associate with the car in hopes of finding a source of funds. This path suggests a lack of prior research, and therefore a lack of facts.


hees@ix.netcom.com

> We're going in circles here.............

> WHAT TITLE?!?!? *IS* there such a thing?

> What constitutes this title? Does the
> railroad create one? Is there a certificate
> from the manufacturer? Is any of this
> paperwork deemed acceptable in a court of
> law?

Basically the railroad creates the title. In TVRM's case, the transfer of ownership appeared on Southern Railway letterhead specifying the equipment being transfered, to whom the equipment was being transferred to, and any applicable conditions agreed upon by both parties. Basically, this type of transfer of ownership is a contractual agreement and is accepted as evidence of ownership by the courts.

awalker1829@yahoo.com