Visited the Bel-Del today. Glad to see the #142 operate but the ride was only 45 or so minutes if you exclude the fact it left 5 min late, arrived 5 minutes early, and laid over for 5 minutes at the other end. There was narraration whatsoever, which I don't usually pay attention to anyways but it would have been nice to hear about the scenery. The coaches made me feel like I was on Long Island Railroad circa 1994 commuter train, even in the RDC which had poor but working air conditioning. It looked and smelled like a commuter train, only the whistle in the background reminded you where you were. They advertised a gift shop but with no narraration we had no idea it was in the middle of the train in a coach, and no signs told of its location. The train leaves from just a dirt area with a covered bench and outhouse, up by the parking lot you buy your tickets in a little kiosk. It was pretty dissapointing, and I couldn't even find anywhere to get photos or video of the #142 except the station but there were people swarming around the engine getting their photo taken there. I managed to get a few shots without people in them, some with the train crew which is much better than tourists with cameras. The hogger had a heavy hand on the whistle; when we stopped at the other end for so long I thought he had run out of steam. We went to the other side of town to the Phillipsburg Railroad Historians to see the old Becker Dairy Farm miniature train and it looks great. The steamer is in Michigan along with a small gas switch engine. We also went over the bridge to Bushkill Park to visit their vintage National Amusement Device park train. The track was the worst I had ever seen, especially the turns, and it went less than 5 mph around the loop of track. I have a feeling that the Bel Del won't be operating next year...but I hope it does. It was neat when the NS freight came by above on the bridge.

I did a much better write up the first time but my computer lost it...

-Ed Kelley


GTNGRR@aol.com

Maybe I am more tolerant, or just giddy to see steam in NJ (even if it is so far west in another 100 yards it would be in PA ;-)), but my wife, toddler and I enjoyed the ride.

It's not Strasburg or North Conway, but it is far from the worst I have ridden. Of course, we rode the second weekend, so things may have changed. I did wonder if the volunteers would hold out all summer. As I posted before, they also have a lot of trips this fall once they leave P'burg.

Anyway, here's a left turn on your post... you said you can't see the engine on the ride, and the only way you know it is steam is to ehar the whistle.

Well,here's a problem. That's what steam trains are like. If you can ride a train and not see or hear the engine in 2004, you can bet doing the same 50 years ago would have the same result.

What you missed, and what I continue to urge Steamtown to take the lead on, is to perform a photo runby (or demonstration run by) on EVERY trip.

Yes EVERY.

Yes no one does it.

Yes it takes organization and time.

Yes it is a thought "out of the box"

And, yes, it will thrill your riders, help them understand steam railroading and make them come back for more.

Find a clearing, rent a lineside acre, whatever, and set up a permanent run-by spot where EVERY trip stops for a run-by.

I am not talking about a foamer-got-his-video cam-so-everyone-be-quiet, but a real steam show that gets the kiddies excited and screaming.

Think about how Ross electrified Port Jervis and you'll begin to understand what I mean. And the bleachers ain't a bad idea, either.

My soap box is now back on the shelf.

Rob

> Visited the Bel-Del today. Glad to see the
> #142 operate but the ride was only 45 or so
> minutes if you exclude the fact it left 5
> min late, arrived 5 minutes early, and laid
> over for 5 minutes at the other end. There
> was narraration whatsoever, which I don't
> usually pay attention to anyways but it
> would have been nice to hear about the
> scenery. The coaches made me feel like I was
> on Long Island Railroad circa 1994 commuter
> train, even in the RDC which had poor but
> working air conditioning. It looked and
> smelled like a commuter train, only the
> whistle in the background reminded you where
> you were. They advertised a gift shop but
> with no narraration we had no idea it was in
> the middle of the train in a coach, and no
> signs told of its location. The train leaves
> from just a dirt area with a covered bench
> and outhouse, up by the parking lot you buy
> your tickets in a little kiosk. It was
> pretty dissapointing, and I couldn't even
> find anywhere to get photos or video of the
> #142 except the station but there were
> people swarming around the engine getting
> their photo taken there. I managed to get a
> few shots without people in them, some with
> the train crew which is much better than
> tourists with cameras. The hogger had a
> heavy hand on the whistle; when we stopped
> at the other end for so long I thought he
> had run out of steam. We went to the other
> side of town to the Phillipsburg Railroad
> Historians to see the old Becker Dairy Farm
> miniature train and it looks great. The
> steamer is in Michigan along with a small
> gas switch engine. We also went over the
> bridge to Bushkill Park to visit their
> vintage National Amusement Device park
> train. The track was the worst I had ever
> seen, especially the turns, and it went less
> than 5 mph around the loop of track. I have
> a feeling that the Bel Del won't be
> operating next year...but I hope it does. It
> was neat when the NS freight came by above
> on the bridge.

> I did a much better write up the first time
> but my computer lost it...

> -Ed Kelley


trains@robertjohndavis.com

I agree with Rob on this. I rode the train on Father' Day with my ten-year-old, and once we got moving, there was no sound at all (even in the first car) from the locomotive other than the whistle. It could just as well have been battery powered.

I posted something just before the ban on that musuem up in Scranton, stating that "stuffed and mounted" steam just doesn't make it. A photo run by would provide an excellent opportunity to demonstrate just what working steam power is all about.

And I like Rob's term "demonstration run by", not just for photographers. That is something to put in the brochures, and on websites.

"-not only a train ride, but a real demonstration of what a speeding train looked like XXX years ago-"

Neat idea-

EDM

> Maybe I am more tolerant, or just giddy to
> see steam in NJ (even if it is so far west
> in another 100 yards it would be in PA ;-)),
> but my wife, toddler and I enjoyed the ride.

> It's not Strasburg or North Conway, but it
> is far from the worst I have ridden. Of
> course, we rode the second weekend, so
> things may have changed. I did wonder if the
> volunteers would hold out all summer. As I
> posted before, they also have a lot of trips
> this fall once they leave P'burg.

> Anyway, here's a left turn on your post...
> you said you can't see the engine on the
> ride, and the only way you know it is steam
> is to ehar the whistle.

> Well,here's a problem. That's what steam
> trains are like. If you can ride a train and
> not see or hear the engine in 2004, you can
> bet doing the same 50 years ago would have
> the same result.

> What you missed, and what I continue to urge
> Steamtown to take the lead on, is to perform
> a photo runby (or demonstration run by) on
> EVERY trip.

> Yes EVERY.

> Yes no one does it.

> Yes it takes organization and time.

> Yes it is a thought "out of the
> box"

> And, yes, it will thrill your riders, help
> them understand steam railroading and make
> them come back for more.

> Find a clearing, rent a lineside acre,
> whatever, and set up a permanent run-by spot
> where EVERY trip stops for a run-by.

> I am not talking about a
> foamer-got-his-video
> cam-so-everyone-be-quiet, but a real steam
> show that gets the kiddies excited and
> screaming.

> Think about how Ross electrified Port Jervis
> and you'll begin to understand what I mean.
> And the bleachers ain't a bad idea, either.

> My soap box is now back on the shelf.

> Rob


edm5970@earthlink.net

I haven't been to the Bel-Del yet, However, over the decades I've been a railfan I've learned to take advantage of operations that offer two or more trips each day. I ride the first trip, observe the layout of the land for potential photo spots, then chase a later train to get those "perfect" shots.

As for less-than-sparkling equipment, let's be thankful that some organization is at least trying to operate the trip. Perhaps if more people ride, such trips will generate the dollars needed to "spruce-up" the equipment. It's sort of a chicken-and-egg situation. -- Ray

> Visited the Bel-Del today. Glad to see the
> #142 operate but the ride was only 45 or so
> minutes if you exclude the fact it left 5
> min late, arrived 5 minutes early, and laid
> over for 5 minutes at the other end. There
> was narraration whatsoever, which I don't
> usually pay attention to anyways but it
> would have been nice to hear about the
> scenery. The coaches made me feel like I was
> on Long Island Railroad circa 1994 commuter
> train, even in the RDC which had poor but
> working air conditioning. It looked and
> smelled like a commuter train, only the
> whistle in the background reminded you where
> you were. They advertised a gift shop but
> with no narraration we had no idea it was in
> the middle of the train in a coach, and no
> signs told of its location. The train leaves
> from just a dirt area with a covered bench
> and outhouse, up by the parking lot you buy
> your tickets in a little kiosk. It was
> pretty dissapointing, and I couldn't even
> find anywhere to get photos or video of the
> #142 except the station but there were
> people swarming around the engine getting
> their photo taken there. I managed to get a
> few shots without people in them, some with
> the train crew which is much better than
> tourists with cameras. The hogger had a
> heavy hand on the whistle; when we stopped
> at the other end for so long I thought he
> had run out of steam. We went to the other
> side of town to the Phillipsburg Railroad
> Historians to see the old Becker Dairy Farm
> miniature train and it looks great. The
> steamer is in Michigan along with a small
> gas switch engine. We also went over the
> bridge to Bushkill Park to visit their
> vintage National Amusement Device park
> train. The track was the worst I had ever
> seen, especially the turns, and it went less
> than 5 mph around the loop of track. I have
> a feeling that the Bel Del won't be
> operating next year...but I hope it does. It
> was neat when the NS freight came by above
> on the bridge.

> I did a much better write up the first time
> but my computer lost it...

> -Ed Kelley


raymondreter@aol.com

I found the Bel-Del trips to be leisurely and pleasant. The crews were friendly, the bathrooms were clean and the souvenir car well-stocked. They even offered air-conditioning on some of the cars, something many tourist lines do not offer. My only recommendation would be to cut back some the brush on the river side of the train for a more open view and to have a PA system on the train to point out interesting views and to add some history.

I think it's easy for us to complain and to point out weaknesses as an observer, but it's also good to make note of strengths and high points, too. Railfans have a tendency to harp on the negative all the time, and what they fail to understand is that it's not always about the railfan.

If 142 and train are not coming back next year, BR&W should send 2-8-0 #60 and a fleet of their steel passenger cars over for a permanent operation there. 60 would do better on this route than on the dull, "been there, done that" Ringoes-Flemington run. The Bel-Del has so much scenic potential and could be made into a permanent steam tourist operation with little effort.

BTW where is the 142 and train kept on the Bel-Del during the week? Is there an enginehouse in P'burg away from the station area where the train is kept? Where do they water the engine? I didn't see a plug, hose or standpipe nearby, nor was there any sign of a coal pile.

Sharon

> I haven't been to the Bel-Del yet, However,
> over the decades I've been a railfan I've
> learned to take advantage of operations that
> offer two or more trips each day. I ride the
> first trip, observe the layout of the land
> for potential photo spots, then chase a
> later train to get those "perfect"
> shots.

> As for less-than-sparkling equipment, let's
> be thankful that some organization is at
> least trying to operate the trip. Perhaps if
> more people ride, such trips will generate
> the dollars needed to "spruce-up"
> the equipment. It's sort of a
> chicken-and-egg situation. -- Ray

> BTW where is the 142 and train kept on the
> Bel-Del during the week? Is there an
> enginehouse in P'burg away from the station
> area where the train is kept? Where do they
> water the engine? I didn't see a plug, hose
> or standpipe nearby, nor was there any sign
> of a coal pile.

The 142 and train is kept (behind a fence) at the Baer Aggregates quarry at Carpenterville (just pass the location where the tourist runs turn back). I THINK they water the engine (via a hose) behind the public works wastewater facility on the south end of Phillipsburg. Not sure about coaling--most likely done at the quarry.

I too found the ride enjoyable and the whole "experience" quite acceptable given its non-tourist-destination location and the volunteer staffing. Yes, trees do block some of the river views (except along the area near the I-78 bridges) and 142 doesn't have to work too hard on this pretty much level route, but it IS a nice ride behind steam for 10 bucks. I didn't mind riding in a commuter coach with only every third window that opens--just get on board early if you want to get an "open window seat". All of the riders seemed ok with the accommodations the day I rode. I guess it wouldn't hurt if the trainman / conductor mentioned the on-board gift shop car when they lifted your tickets--I did forget it was there!

When I visited they had an area guide booklet for the taking, when you bought your tickets. Inside are histories of the Bel-Del, the 142 (including a spec sheet), the "new" Brill motorcar, and more. Be sure to pick one up--it helps to take the place of the "no narration" situation.

You CAN get photos and videos of the train along the line. You can drive to Carpentersville, but you need to leave at the same time the train does to make it there with time to spare. The train stops about 100 feet short of the grade crossing at Carpentersville. To get there, go south out of Phillipsburg on Main Street. Turn right at the traffic light at the overhead stone railroad viaduct just south of town. This is Carpentersville Road. About a mile and half out this road, Carpentersville Road makes a right (it's marked) and crosses over I-78. Continue straight on this road another couple miles to the grade crossing. There is some "pull-off space" to the edge of the road just past the crossing. DO NOT PARK IN THE DRIVEWAY NEXT TO THE CROSSING. You can shoot the train from the crossing or walk up along the former 2nd track roadbed (AS ALWAYS DON'T WALK THE TRACKS THEMSELVES AND STAY WELL CLEAR). The train will not cross the road, except at the end of day when its deadheading back to the quarry. If time permits (and it should if you left on time), you can walk about a 1/4 mile north to a private crossing, which offers a nice shot of 142 coming out of the woods. At Phillipsburg, you can hike in a bit, again on the former 2nd track roadbed. You can get a shot of 142 departing under the NS bridge or by walking about 1/4 mile south you can get a shot of the train curving past the former location of the Bel-Del Phillipsburg yard. If you have the June issue of RAILPACE MAGAZINE, you will note there is at least one across-the-river shot available from the canal park (public land) south of Easton, PA (I believe off/along Rt 611--I haven't checked that location out yet). As long as I'm preaching... please, a couple of major don'ts... don't try to shoot from the I-78 toll bridge and don't try to shoot from the NS bridge over the Bel-Del tracks at Phillipsburg (lots of action on the Lehigh Line could make that tresspassing a fatal mistake). As soon as the train returns to Phillipsburg after a trip is best time to get shots of 142 without a crowd of people around her.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

I'm glad someone found something good to say about the Phillipsburg/142 rides...we have busted our vlolunteer butts trying to get this show off the ground and we work hard to improve what we have every week...true there is no PA system (yet, but we were working on the wiring for it this past weekend, so there will be), yes the brush needs to be cut (but when we first surveyed the line it was april and the leaves werent out yet), but you still can safely stick your head out the window without fear of bushes hitting you in the face if you try to get a pic on one of the nice sweeping curves...and yes you dont really hear the engine much since it really isnt working that hard, and cant go very fast since its only a 5 mile run (but this too will be increased for next year, providing the public support ie ridership is there, we've already put over $300,000 into track work to just get us to carpentersville)...and yes he does hit the whistle heavy pulling out of phillipsburg station, because you can hear it for miles, and thats what brings riders in...hello? we arent doing this just because we like it (altho we do) we also NEED TO MAKE A PROFIT, thats the name of the game here...yes this is tourist railroading, and yes its also family entertainment....history has proven over and over again that if railroading was left to the railfans who dont support it, it would have died long ago...and last but not least, we would love to do run-bys, but the physical characteristics of the railroad dont lend themselves to a place where we can do that, and keep to our 5 trips a day schedule...its nice to see people coming out and riding with us, but the bashers should really try coming out and doing some of the work and being a constructive solution to the problems we already know exist...some people will read ed's post and think 'there aint no way im gonna go ride that thing now'...but im hopeful that some will read sharon's and say 'hey, lets go for a ride and see what its all about'

just the 2 cents of a guy whos been there every weekend trying to make it better

> at the Baer Aggregates quarry at
> Carpenterville (just pass the location where
> the tourist runs turn back). I THINK they
> water the engine (via a hose) behind the
> public works wastewater facility on the
> south end of Phillipsburg. Not sure about
> coaling--most likely done at the quarry.

> I too found the ride enjoyable and the whole
> "experience" quite acceptable
> given its non-tourist-destination location
> and the volunteer staffing. Yes, trees do
> block some of the river views (except along
> the area near the I-78 bridges) and 142
> doesn't have to work too hard on this pretty
> much level route, but it IS a nice ride
> behind steam for 10 bucks. I didn't mind
> riding in a commuter coach with only every
> third window that opens--just get on board
> early if you want to get an "open
> window seat". All of the riders seemed
> ok with the accommodations the day I rode. I
> guess it wouldn't hurt if the trainman /
> conductor mentioned the on-board gift shop
> car when they lifted your tickets--I did
> forget it was there!

> When I visited they had an area guide
> booklet for the taking, when you bought your
> tickets. Inside are histories of the
> Bel-Del, the 142 (including a spec sheet),
> the "new" Brill motorcar, and
> more. Be sure to pick one up--it helps to
> take the place of the "no
> narration" situation.

> You CAN get photos and videos of the train
> along the line. You can drive to
> Carpentersville, but you need to leave at
> the same time the train does to make it
> there with time to spare. The train stops
> about 100 feet short of the grade crossing
> at Carpentersville. To get there, go south
> out of Phillipsburg on Main Street. Turn
> right at the traffic light at the overhead
> stone railroad viaduct just south of town.
> This is Carpentersville Road. About a mile
> and half out this road, Carpentersville Road
> makes a right (it's marked) and crosses over
> I-78. Continue straight on this road another
> couple miles to the grade crossing. There is
> some "pull-off space" to the edge
> of the road just past the crossing. DO NOT
> PARK IN THE DRIVEWAY NEXT TO THE CROSSING.
> You can shoot the train from the crossing or
> walk up along the former 2nd track roadbed
> (AS ALWAYS DON'T WALK THE TRACKS THEMSELVES
> AND STAY WELL CLEAR). The train will not
> cross the road, except at the end of day
> when its deadheading back to the quarry. If
> time permits (and it should if you left on
> time), you can walk about a 1/4 mile north
> to a private crossing, which offers a nice
> shot of 142 coming out of the woods. At
> Phillipsburg, you can hike in a bit, again
> on the former 2nd track roadbed. You can get
> a shot of 142 departing under the NS bridge
> or by walking about 1/4 mile south you can
> get a shot of the train curving past the
> former location of the Bel-Del Phillipsburg
> yard. If you have the June issue of RAILPACE
> MAGAZINE, you will note there is at least
> one across-the-river shot available from the
> canal park (public land) south of Easton, PA
> (I believe off/along Rt 611--I haven't
> checked that location out yet). As long as
> I'm preaching... please, a couple of major
> don'ts... don't try to shoot from the I-78
> toll bridge and don't try to shoot from the
> NS bridge over the Bel-Del tracks at
> Phillipsburg (lots of action on the Lehigh
> Line could make that tresspassing a fatal
> mistake). As soon as the train returns to
> Phillipsburg after a trip is best time to
> get shots of 142 without a crowd of people
> around her.

> Regards,
> Jim Robinson

Obviously one would not try and walk the 78 bridge or the NS bridge...I thought there were some just local bridges/no highway that would perhaps have a sidewalk. Although I wouldn't put it past the guy who stood on the tracks behind a SRC engine trying to get photos and due to his lack of moving from the tracks, the train had to make an emergency stop. At least that's the story I heard anyways. Side note: The Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad was planning on doing a railroad safety camp to educate children about safety around railroads and rail yards. I had seen kids in the turntable pit and kids running from the road into the yard tracks. Even though the BJWRR yard is nothing compared to the UP in Roseville or anything, toddlers can easily trip over the rails or hurt themselves; a great liability. Operation Lifesaver has done a good job distributing their activity books as well.

It is good to hear that the run will be extended for next year...hopefully the #142 will return because its too far for me to drive up to Utica or Syracuse. I was looking at the new Bachmann HO model of the #142. Though I do not model-railroad and am mainly into live steam/12" gauge it would be a nice desk piece on a display case or something. If you join the NYS&W Historical and Technical society, you get $20 off by paying $20 to join the society. So basically if you join you are still paying the same but you can get the newsletter/calendar and the money can go to improve the line and the passenger coaches. If you really think about it...considering the #142's build date...the LIRR commuter coaches ARE what was running when it was built (those coaches I believe were retired 1999 with the arrival of the bilevels) and in fact are decades older than the locomotive itself. Redoing the interiors and putting in a PA system would really do a great deal to the operation. For years the Niles Canyon Railway in California did not have a depot; simply a stand like the BelDel does when th NCRY was a start-up in 1989. They started with a railbus (like the BelDel) and a tiny 0-4-0T. Today they have extended their run, got a 2-6-2T and are working on getting more steamers running, and restored many diesels to operation. Passengers don't ride in open air homeade coaches but rather vintage Southern Pacific and Western Pacific coaches which are beautifully-restored. They even relocated the Sunol depot and were restoring that when I last visited. And it was amazing how much stuff they could sell in their bookstore which was inside an old boxcar. The NCRY is a non-profit railroad and only runs on Sundays, or most of the time only 2 Sundays a month, but it was well worth the visit. Given time, money, and effort the Bel Del can have some serious potential and hopefully my $20 will go towards that. I always wondered...what if everyone in New Jersey donated $1...you'd have several million dollars there.

Also does anybody know if there is a map on the web showing the trackage along the Delaware as well as across the Delaware above? I should order a Railroad Atlas if they still sell those.

-Ed Kelley

GTNGRR@aol.com

Well Now.....So you think we should put a P.A. system in the cars....If you patronized our Christmas Trips, you would be aware that we repaired and rewired the LI cars to have the Christmas music thru the entire train including the RDC several years ago. We weren't asked for a PA until two weeks ago. It will be up next weekend.

As for the "poor" AC in the Budd car, It's 50 years old...How good is your plumbing at 50?
We only had a retired HVAC tech become active with us in P'burg 2 weeks ago and there are several more pressing repairs that need to be made on the RDC.

I guess you missed the Gift Shop car....Pity...It gets like a meat locker after an hour or so.

I'm sorry there was no narration on the trip you rode. I have been doing a "Welcome to the BEL-Del" speech every weekend except Memorial Day for all the trips unless I'm on the train fixing something. I haven't learned to throw my voice far enough to cover both things at once.

For an operation that's only a little over two months old and staffed by two separate groups one of which is up to 2 hours away on the other side of the state, I think things are going rather well.

Feel free to show up in P'burg on a weekend in work clothes....It gets a little thin with only one regular mechanic servicing the entire train as well as a 50 year old, first generation RDC with strange and unique problems and very few spare parts.


gmbadd@aol.com

I had always thought that the purpose of steam tourist railroads was to capture the "romantic" era of steam. Those who have lived in New York and ridden on the smells-like-toilet LIRR coaches, there's nothiing special about them when they aren't much different except for the paint. The Sierra Railway has completely gutted their LIRR coaches and converted them to open air and dining cars. Sure this isn't necessary for the Bel-Del but the coaches could have their interiors gutted and rebuilt with new seats/etc. The Bel-Del may be a start up, but the two railways that work together in running it have pretty substantial experience with passenger railroads; excursion (NYS&W) and tourist (BR&W) operation, which is why I was surprised that this was the rolling stock they had to offer and used on excursions. Most of the hard feelings about the Bel Del and being a "waste of money" were from my father (not interested in railroads; simply the average rider) who has been to many tourist railroads including the Sierra, California Western, Roaring Camp, Valley Railroad, Strasburg, Sacramento Southern, etc. He commuted on the Long Island Railroad and Penn Central (and RDCs) so the cars were not only the dissapointment to him, but the lack of narraration, length of ride, and proper station restroom facilities. I think that the BR&W and the NYS&W who run the train, being their first season, should take the advice of riders and perhaps consider a feedback form on the website and distributed at the ticket booth to take criticism to better the railroad, since it is in its first season. As they say, "the customer is always right". The best feedback is usually from the average rider, local or whatnought, and the ones who bring their kids for rides since that is the average audience. Sure nobody expects a startup or even many railroads already in existence to keep up with Strasburg or Durango. The line which the trains run on has great potential, like I said, given time, money, and effort it will get better each year. Just my two cents worth.

-Ed Kelley


GTNGRR@aol.com

I have removed four posts from the end of this thread. They marked the point at which a legitimate discussion of the Bel Del operation turned into a debate concerning the personal characterists and alleged personal character flaws of individual posters. That is flaming, and it is contrary to the Interchange guildelines.

Anyone is welcome to challenge facts they feel are incorrect, or to offer alternative interpretations. However, comments about other people's personal character will be removed.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Sharon, please contact me back-channel if you see this. I have a message for you.

eledbetter@rypn.org

I've said this on other message boards, I'll say it here. Put up or shut up. Les is absolutly right, if this was all left up to the monday morning quarter back type rail-fans, trips would have died years ago.

People who make it a hobby to climb the soap box to spout off, and do nothing but that infurate me. Many of the people who made these trips a possiblity and not just a dream have given up a tremendous amount of their own time and in one instance their own money to make this happen. Then some know it all uses the internet to piss and moan about how he would do it so much better.

You change more from the inside then outside. If you want all these elaborate changes to the trip, Bob said it, get a pair of work clothes on and show up and help out. I'll see you Saturday.

Everyone, please take a deep breath. Each side has had its say, nothing new is being added at this point. Please, unless someone has something truly new to add, let's let this one rest.

eledbetter@rypn.org

...it's intolerance. ;)

c'mon guys, move past this crud. we have trains to run.

rcw7585@njit.edu