First off, the very civil responses by the BR&W and NYS&W Tech folks to these critical posts show that they have class and do care about their operation. If it was me, I might have pushed the no-flame rule to the limit if people started coming down on something I worked hard at to get set up and running. The responses indicate that they are getting the PA system working (now watch some fan complain that the narration "spoils the ride") and are aware of other issues such as the view-blocking tree growth. I'm amazed at what they HAVE done so far vs. what they haven't done (yet). As Rod said this was only going to be joint BR&W-B&DR/Phillipsburg venture to offer a short doodlebug ride to complement the revitalization of the downtown area of Phillipsburg. The addition of the NYS&W Tech folks and their 142/trainset combo during this summer (remember 142 is leaving in Sept. and the tourist operation will revert back to the original "doodlebug plan") was a pleasant surprise. This isn't the 1960's--new steam tourist operations don't open up everyday any more!

I've made only one visit to the Bel-Del operation so far (the Sat. of Memorial Day Weekend) and, as I stated in another post, I found it enjoyable and certainly would recommend it to anyone--railfan or the general public. The coach I rode in was clean. I didn't have a problem sitting next to window that didn't open (it wasn't a really hot day, but I have ridden in these very same cars elsewhere on a 90-some degree day without feeling like it's an oven). Everyone siting near me (all families "out for the day") were having a good time and you could tell many were on their first "old" steam train ride. I didn't hear one "I'll never do this again!" for anyone. As for the scenery, it's fine. Yeah, you're running mostly through trees, but you do the same at New Hope, W&W, and many other places. Remember those same trees should be a nice sight come fall colors (albeit from the doodlbug). Also, as I said earlier, there is a decent stretch where the river is in plain view. They put a LOT of effort in setting up the boarding area. This was a jungle of overgrowth and (from what I heard) was a haven for "various illegal activities". 1000 points for cleaning that area up. The ticket booth, the boarding shelter, and the paved path connecting the two are nicely done. They even added a "rest bench" halfway up the somewhat steep path for people that need to take a break. Little details like that show that "they're not doing everything wrong".

Remember not every tourist operation can be another Strasburg. Phillipsburg is not the major tourist draw like the Amish Country of Lancaster County, PA. An ex-LIRR commuter coach will never be like one of SRC's beautiful wooden cars. 142 (on level track) is not going to sound as good as 90 or 475 climbing the hill out out of Leamon Place. Every operation has its plusses and minuses--the Bel-Del has plenty of plusses to offer.

Go there. Pay the 10 bucks. You'll get your money's worth.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

I think the American public is understanding that organizations like this are "works-in-progress."

Let's not forget that neither Disneyland (Anaheim, CA) nor Disney World (Orlando, FL) were 100% complete when their doors opened to the public. In fact, nowhere near 100% complete! And let's not forget that venerable institution HersheyPark (Hershey, PA). It has reinvented itself many times in my lifetime alone!

A tourist railroad is not the same as a Broadway play. Having said that, I have, however, attended some very good local professional theatrical productions with minimal scenery that were excellent due to the quality of the cast. -- Ray

> The Bel Del thread got me to wondering,
> hoping for educated opinions. I have not
> been to Bel Del and this isn't about them -
> just general marketing.

> Can we, in this day of highly produced
> entertainment, afford to start small and
> rough and expect the public to understand
> and help us grow, or should we not frustrate
> ourselves by starting operations until we
> can afford to do it "right"?

> If you went to a Broadway play and found the
> sets unpainted and the actors reading from
> scripts in hand, and the theatre hot as an
> oven with no air flow, would you be
> satisfied? Would you come back? Bring your
> friends?

> We may not all need to be the Orient
> Express, but once we decide what the
> personality / concept of our operation is
> supposed to be, do we owe it to the public
> not to expose them to it until we have
> produced it to the point of physical
> comfort, high entertainment value, and made
> sure all the ancillary requirements such as
> bathrooms are present and pleasant?

> I seem to have made a career of low budget
> startups and am well aware of all the
> pitfalls and processes that go into creating
> something on a shoestring and having to
> explain and apologise afterward. Over the
> past 3 decades I have noticed a diminishing
> tolerance in the general public for
> discomfort and inconvenience, and a rising
> set of expectations for whatever they choose
> to spend their entertainment / recreation
> dollars on.

> Some expectations issues are easily
> addressed by keeping them reasonable in
> distributed marketing - if your cars are
> converted flatcars with benches and arch
> roofs and open sides, make it clear the
> train ride isn't climate controlled. But
> make the open air cars comfortable,
> attractive and pleasant open air cars. If
> you can't, like Strasburg on day one, should
> you open your doors? Day one at Strasburg
> was decades ago when many things were
> different. Can we still use the 1950 formula
> for building a business today?

> Any marketing gurus out there please chime
> in.

> dave


raymondreter@aol.com

>>First off, the very civil responses by the >>BR&W and NYS&W Tech folks to these critical >>posts show that they have class and do care >>about their operation

I would not exactly call some of the flaming/harassing posts by at least one NYS&WTHS person "civil" or "classy" in any way. In fact it shows bad PR skills and gives a bad face to the group if everyone is like this there. However I am sure there are plenty of good people with them and the BR&W and you can't label an organization by one or two people. Those posts have been deleted, and rightfully so. If you can't deal with criticism and tourists, their kids, and whatnought...tourist operations of any kind are not for you (particularly conductor jobs). And getting up in the cab doesn't change anything...you always get the people who come up to ask stupid questions like "is this a real steam locomotive" or "can I come in the cab?". If you want to get invited into the cab, be nice and don't ask; if they feel like being nice and letting you into the cab, they'll let you know. At the Yosemite Mountain Sugar Pine Railroad, at the end of the line (circa 1996) they let anybody who wanted to go up into the cab of the big Shay 10. The only place else I've seen general public open cab invites is at Railfair '99 and at the Golden Gate Railroad Museum's doubleheader run. Due to the whole insurance liability subject, this isn't done too much anymore.

The BR&W has been successfully running a tourist railroad for 40+ years. I haven't been there yet but in California we knew who they were. I never heard of the NYS&WTHS people before. I was wondering long have they been around. I understand that they own the #142 and the equipment used in P'burg,not the NYS&W Railroad which is a common carrier that operates mostly freight service and the Syracuse commuter ON TRACK operation with old RDCs (including former New York Central/MTA ones).

Boy you just aren't gonna give it up are you??

> I would not exactly call some of the
> flaming/harassing posts by at least one
> NYS&WTHS person "civil" or
> "classy" in any way. In fact it
> shows bad PR skills and gives a bad face to
> the group if everyone is like this there.
> However I am sure there are plenty of good
> people with them and the BR&W and you
> can't label an organization by one or two
> people. Those posts have been deleted, and
> rightfully so. If you can't deal with
> criticism and tourists, their kids, and
> whatnought...tourist operations of any kind
> are not for you (particularly conductor
> jobs). And getting up in the cab doesn't
> change anything...you always get the people
> who come up to ask stupid questions like
> "is this a real steam locomotive"
> or "can I come in the cab?". If
> you want to get invited into the cab, be
> nice and don't ask; if they feel like being
> nice and letting you into the cab, they'll
> let you know. At the Yosemite Mountain Sugar
> Pine Railroad, at the end of the line (circa
> 1996) they let anybody who wanted to go up
> into the cab of the big Shay 10. The only
> place else I've seen general public open cab
> invites is at Railfair '99 and at the Golden
> Gate Railroad Museum's doubleheader run. Due
> to the whole insurance liability subject,
> this isn't done too much anymore.

> The BR&W has been successfully running a
> tourist railroad for 40+ years. I haven't
> been there yet but in California we knew who
> they were. I never heard of the NYS&WTHS
> people before. I was wondering long have
> they been around. I understand that they own
> the #142 and the equipment used in
> P'burg,not the NYS&W Railroad which is a
> common carrier that operates mostly freight
> service and the Syracuse commuter ON TRACK
> operation with old RDCs (including former
> New York Central/MTA ones).


wooly421@charter.net

> Boy you just aren't gonna give it up are
> you??

i am really curious about who said what that got removed...

though... we should remain on topic i guess.

i will say that anyone that has something critical to say and hasn't been here is, at the least, welcome to come and visit our operation and become a part of making it better.




rcw7585@njit.edu

My only complaint on the web page of the "S&S" is that it doesn't make clear anywhere what state they're located in! They give directions from two cities and one county but as someone who wants to find out more about this railway, I shouldn't have to hunt down what state of the union they're located in!

Smokebox

> I think that perhaps why Strasburg was able
> to start small was tourist railroads weren't
> a big thing back then. But now, tourist
> railroads having been around for decades,
> people who have visited the big ones like
> Strasburg, etc go to a place like the new
> Bel-Del and walk away very dissapointed and
> "I'm never coming back here"
> attitude. Corporate sponsorships or
> investors will help get the ball rolling
> given you have a pretty slick proposal. The
> link I have provided below is a start-up
> operation in the past few years, though its
> owner has been working on it for some time.
> When it opened to the public, it had a
> replica passenger station (not a bus stop
> type shed) with proper restrooms, a snack
> bar, etc. Sure it may be 2' and 7.5"
> gauge, but its got steam, a 2' gauge Dash 8,
> and lots of other stuff. As you can see a
> good job has been done with this. Lots of
> pictures too. Plus a very nice brick storage
> facility. They waited until everything was
> perfect to open up; and they did, and
> apparently it is doing quite well and they
> are extending their track. When the supposed
> new Georgetown Loop operators come in, no
> doubt there will be great dissapointment
> because the operation that the Ashbys and
> Greksas have run for 30+ years is going to
> be gone and the new owners will be starting
> from scratch and will have more than a hard
> time trying to make it the way the old
> Georgetown Loop was.

> I would not exactly call some of the
> flaming/harassing posts by at least one
> NYS&WTHS person "civil" or
> "classy" in any way.

Ed, that is true, and that is why the posts were removed. On the other hand, you have been walking a fine line between constructively critical and needlessly abrasive yourself. As moderator of this board, I encourage you to be a little more temperate in your arguments, so as to be less likely to give needless offence while still getting your point across.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Yes that's a pretty good point. I actually spent some good 25 minutes refining my original post on the Bel Del but my computer lost it...and in frustration I rather hastily put together the next one without thinking it straight. That got the people angry and that got the whole thing going vulgar. So pretty much if my original post had worked we wouldn't have had all this. Well sorry for all the problems this has caused and maybe I'll write my posts in Word and copy them into the window to prevent losing and sending hastily written mean posts again. Regardless it was still dissapointing how brutal the NYS&WTHS guy got on the post. I try to act professional MOST of the time and all I have is a little nook on a live steam site...but with a whole working railroad you really have to watch how you treat the visitors (Disney has it right...call them "guests") both on site and elsewhere to keep a good image.

Thanks for being fair with everything and sorry once again for being over-critical.

Thanks,
Ed Kelley

ed.kelley@discoverlivesteam.com

The things which will send the
> mother with two small children away in
> disgust, and create the "word of
> mouth" which will doom an operation
> after the initial curiosity. As my Associate
> Randy says, "lets not our educational
> mission be to educate people never again to
> ride a tourist train."

A simple test to evaluate the word-of-mouth regarding your operation: Have you ever said, "We are the best kept secret in _ _ _ _ _ _ _!" (Fill in the blank. If you have, your word-of-mouth is probably negative. Also, we have conducted exit polls that have indicated a positive visitor sentiment. However, studies show that many guests when confronted with a survey would rather lie than hurt your feelings or be confrontational. We all think we are better than is actually the case.
It's human nature.


wyld@sbcglobal.net

Back when I worked in the other end of the entertainment industry, there was a rule of thumb that if one audience member liked your show he would mention it to maybe 2 or 3 friends, but if he didn't like it he would tell at least ten. Also, word of mouth from a known source is a much more powerful motivator than the slickest sales campaign.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Regardless it was still
> dissapointing how brutal the NYS&WTHS
> guy got on the post.

Ed, you were going well until here, when you turned down the road of criticizing other board poters directly. This is perhaps the single biggest No-No on the Interchange. If you have an issue with a poster, take it up with the board moderators--do not hit back yourself. Further remarks of this kind will be removed without additional notice.

eledbetter@rypn.org