I rode twice behind 4960 on the Grand Canyon Railway. On one trip, in August, I awoke in Williams to find frost on my car windshield.

In my youth, during the late '50s and early '60, the 4960 pulled many special trips for railroad enthusiasts from Chicago to such relatively mundane Illinois destinations as Galesburg and Ottawa. I rode several of these trips, and, when I couldn't ride, I was often on hand to photograph them.

Then, mixed with the excitement of the occasion, I felt a great sadness, because this locomotive was so obviously living on borrowed time. Forty-Nine-Sixty seemed sure to follow the thousands of others that had been or were rapidly being converted into humble bailing wire. But this time things were different. The Grand Canyon Railway acquired and overhauled the engine.

In the process, the outward appearance was changed considerably. Most obviously, the headlight and bell were moved giving the front a very different look. Locomotive purists and CB&Q fans were not amused, but I have to admit the engine is even better looking than before.

I remember standing in the cab watching the fireman prodding at the mechanical stoker with a broom handle. Poor coal was the problem. This no longer occurs; 4960 now burns oil.



gbrewer@yahoo.com

> It won't please everyone as it makes History.

Ya know, those Grand Canyon engines look suspiciously Georgian. If I didn't know better, I'd think maybe someone was a Southern Railway fan out there. ;-)

(I wonder what 4960 would look like with big numbers on the tender, and a Wimble duct?)

JAC

4960 went a lot of places after it left the Q before it got to GCRR. I rode it in the late 50's about 250 round trip I was 11 years old. I believed then it would never end no matter what they said.......Wooly

> I rode twice behind 4960 on the Grand Canyon
> Railway. On one trip, in August, I awoke in
> Williams to find frost on my car windshield.

> In my youth, during the late '50s and early
> '60, the 4960 pulled many special trips for
> railroad enthusiasts from Chicago to such
> relatively mundane Illinois destinations as
> Galesburg and Ottawa. I rode several of
> these trips, and, when I couldn't ride, I
> was often on hand to photograph them.

> Then, mixed with the excitement of the
> occasion, I felt a great sadness, because
> this locomotive was so obviously living on
> borrowed time. Forty-Nine-Sixty seemed sure
> to follow the thousands of others that had
> been or were rapidly being converted into
> humble bailing wire. But this time things
> were different. The Grand Canyon Railway
> acquired and overhauled the engine.

> In the process, the outward appearance was
> changed considerably. Most obviously, the
> headlight and bell were moved giving the
> front a very different look. Locomotive
> purists and CB&Q fans were not amused,
> but I have to admit the engine is even
> better looking than before.

> I remember standing in the cab watching the
> fireman prodding at the mechanical stoker
> with a broom handle. Poor coal was the
> problem. This no longer occurs; 4960 now
> burns oil.


wooly421@charter.net

> Read the next post; as mentioned it is one
> of the exceptions since the RR is used as a
> mode of transportation to the canyon rather
> than a tourist operation. In most cases,
> this IS true. If I wanted to see diesel, I'd
> go to the commuter rail station...not drive
> or fly several hours.

Well, then I'd say you are the exception that proves the rule, Ed.

If you look at this photo from when the 4960 was in excursion/circus train service in the 60s you will see how dramatically altered its appearance is today. I personally think its more attractive as mentioned. Some book on the GCRY I have in the basement, written before 4960 was put back into service, has a nice pic of it pre-restoration.

-Ed Kelley

4960 pic

Ed,

Here is one of mine still in CB&Q service.


http://www.homestaydenver.com/GCRy/4960Ottawa.jpg
gbrewer@yahoo.com

Very nice shot there! I understand that there are other sister engines of the #4960 (including one at the IRM in Union) that are still in their original shape.

-EK

Some pretty obvious differences.

http://www.homestaydenver.com/GCRy/4960Williams.jpg
gbrewer@yahoo.com

> Don,

> It was 82 for the high and 54 for the low
> today in Williams, AZ. Most people don't
> realize Williams is at 6800 feet elevation.
> It rarely gets above 85 in the summer with
> minimal humidity.

> Locomotive 29 was on the train today and
> will run through the 20th of July. 4960 will
> run for three days for your visit, then 29
> will be back on the train on the 24th to
> finish out its 31 day stint. Both engines
> have been running well all summer.

> As for ruining the look of the 4960 in the
> previous thread. The GCR has a big
> investment in the Railway and its equipment
> and WE have always felt it was important to
> build our own history. Now 15 years later
> the railway and equipment has its own
> distinctive look. The initial rebuild of the
> 4960 cost 1.6 mil., since that time we have
> spent an additional 600,000-700,000 to keep
> it running and it has over a 100,000 miles
> on it. This year we will haul over 245,000
> riders. As you can see the GCR is not a
> museum and not your tipical tourist RR. It's
> a for profit RR and can build its own
> history. It won't please everyone as it
> makes History.

> Just as with what happened with the NS steam
> program could happen to the best of us. With
> costs rising and the rules getting tougher
> it will continue to be harder to operate
> steam in the future. See it now while it's
> running, weather ruined or making history.
> It may not be here next year.

> The 4960 is still the 4960. It's the same
> engine that pulled the last fan trip out of
> Chicago Union Station in 1966 and it took 32
> years before the 261 did it in 1998. You
> likely won't see the 4960 run in the
> mid-west again, but you can see it at the
> Grand Canyon Railway running 40 mph hauling
> tonnage and not stuffed and mounted like its
> other sisters.

> R. Franzen

Robert,
Thanks for the weather report. As you are aware from spending two weeks in the Midwest this summer, our weather has been relatively cool. We all laugh about the "dry heat" in the Southwest when the high humidity is discussed in the Chicago area.

As for the 4960, I have always been one of the staunchest supporters and biggest defenders of the high headlight, flat faced, distinctive CB&Q look. To me, 4960 is one of the prettiest locomotives operating today. It's always what's been inside of the locomotive (her heart), not her looks. Robert, you should have offered her up as a contestant on that "reality-based" TV show, "The Swan". She surely would have won for the best make-over. Stop defending your actions, the locomotive is in prime shape and generating revenue for your company.....that she still operates is what really matters.

Don C.

http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net

> Very nice shot there! I understand that
> there are other sister engines of the #4960
> (including one at the IRM in Union) that are
> still in their original shape.

> -EK

Ed,
4963 at IRM, 4978 on display at Mendota, IL, and 4994 located at Lubbock, TX, and which is painted to represent a FW&D 2-8-2, are all in there original configuration. The last two carry Elesco feedwater heaters on the top of their smokeboxes as opposed to the big old Worthington that 4963 (and 4960 in earlier days) have/had. It is not like 4960 is the only "Q" Mike in existence. I'll take an operating locomotive with a modified look over a stuffed and mounted one any day.

Don C.

http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net

> Ed,

> Here is one of mine still in CB&Q
> service.

Glen:

Ah yes!! This brings up an interesting point about looks. The 4960 in Glen's photo is the "Burlington look." BUT, the O1a was apparently involved in a grade crossing accident somewhere in her career and was repaired on the Colorado & Southern. She was "C&S-ized" at that point where the new headlight was positioned at a higher spot (the top of the headlight was no longer in line with the top of the boiler.) Although I prefer the "standard" Burlington look, even I will admit that the way she looks on the Grand Canyon today is better than what the C&S did to her. It's a subtle difference, but a difference!

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Very nice shot there! I understand that
> there are other sister engines of the #4960
> (including one at the IRM in Union) that are
> still in their original shape.

> -EK

Ed:

You are correct sir! There are three other O1a's still in existance; 4963 at IRM in Union, 4978 in Mendota, Illinois and 4994 in Texas. The 4963 (and the 4960 by the way) had Worthington feedwater heaters while both 4978 and 4994 had Elesco's. The 4978 is in beautiful shape, although I have heard disparaging remarks about the condition of her boiler (which is not a problem since she is not going anywhere.) The last time I saw 4963, she need some TLC. I am not sure about the 4994. BTW, if IRM would get the 4963 running as a Burlington engine, I could live with 4960 and her "differnt look" a lot better!

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Some pretty obvious differences.

Glen:

Even I have to admit she's pretty. And even I have to admit she used to be homely; which of course meant she was beautiful!

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Glen:

> Ah yes!! This brings up an interesting point
> about looks. The 4960 in Glen's photo is the
> "Burlington look." BUT, the O1a
> was apparently involved in a grade crossing
> accident somewhere in her career and was
> repaired on the Colorado & Southern. She
> was "C&S-ized" at that point
> where the new headlight was positioned at a
> higher spot (the top of the headlight was no
> longer in line with the top of the boiler.)
> Although I prefer the "standard"
> Burlington look, even I will admit that the
> way she looks on the Grand Canyon today is
> better than what the C&S did to her.
> It's a subtle difference, but a difference!

> Les Beckman (HVRM)

Les,
The change in the location of 4960's headlight was the result of a little misadventure she suffered while enroute to Casper, WY, and a date with an air gun filled with gold paint. In mid to late October 1963 she was sent to Casper to help celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Burlington's arrival in Casper. This was the first and only time for her to get the gold paint treatment (although they did not do the drivers on her as 5632 had done to her, twice). Anyway, while moving to Casper, she ran into the rear of a secondary "Q" passenger train. I remember the photo in Trains Magazine with her face buried in the diaphram of a "Q" heavyweight coach. Obviously, her headlight bracket was damaged and the "make-shift" platform with the 45 degree supports was installed. This incident and repair job left the headlight also a little too high on the front of her smokebox. She remained with this face until Robert Franzen molded her in the Grand Canyon image many years later.

Don C.


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milw261@sbcglobal.net