There has been a good post recently about PA systems on trains.

I would liketo pose another question for discussion.

I take movies when I visit operations. On most runbys the train comes by with the whistle screaming. It seems that this is well liked by many. It doesn't work well when you are taking movies as the loud whistle overwhelms the camera sound system. I would suggest that half of the runbys be done without using the whistle.

Any thoughts?

eburger1@san.rr.com

> There has been a good post recently about PA
> systems on trains.

> I would liketo pose another question for
> discussion.

> I take movies when I visit operations. On
> most runbys the train comes by with the
> whistle screaming. It seems that this is
> well liked by many. It doesn't work well
> when you are taking movies as the loud
> whistle overwhelms the camera sound system.
> I would suggest that half of the runbys be
> done without using the whistle.

> Any thoughts?

I would A) get a camera with better audio...they are available, or B) install a 100 ohm pot in series with the microphone and adjust to best performance. The audio from most video cameras is so terrible it's maybe worth it to get a camera with acceptable audio performance. They are available.
Mark D.


mnmach@lakes.com

And while we are at it why not do the runbys without the voluminous clouds of black smoke.

> And while we are at it why not do the runbys
> without the voluminous clouds of black
> smoke.

A loud "AMEN!!" to that! I detest all that black smoke - it is only there for the photographers, and is done to show movement. In the steam era, only a new or unskilled fireman would make that much smoke. The SP's requirement for a properly-fired steam locomotive was a slight brownish haze above the stack. I love it when the weather is cool and the steam makes those wondeful clouds of white water vapor. :)


mhm2472@NOSPAMyahoo.com

In several of the photo specials I have been involved in at EBT it seems like the more smoke and steam coming out of every orifice, the better. I am not agreeing with this approach but it seems to be what the folks want. Of course there was relentless barking of requests coming over the radio, "More smoke" "Less Smoke" "White Smoke" (Yep, I actually heard that once.) "Open Cylinder Cocks" "Close Cylinder Cocks". My point is that we can't please everybody but we sure do try!!!

> And while we are at it why not do the runbys
> without the voluminous clouds of black
> smoke.


Strasburg Rail Road
asholley@hotmail.com

> A loud "AMEN!!" to that! I detest
> all that black smoke - it is only there for
> the photographers, and is done to show
> movement. In the steam era, only a new or
> unskilled fireman would make that much
> smoke. The SP's requirement for a
> properly-fired steam locomotive was a slight
> brownish haze above the stack. I love it
> when the weather is cool and the steam makes
> those wondeful clouds of white water vapor.
> :)

I have three, maybe four videos of oil-fired steam on the Cuban sugar lines. In all of them, the locomotives are overfired. I can understand it in a closeup, when the photographer has asked for it, but across a field, maybe a mile away? When I was breaking in firing an oil burner, I was told that a light gray haze was all you should see. But overfiring seems to be the thing down there, and they import all of their oil. Just an observation-


edm5970@earthlink.net

Don't pitch your video camers until you check it for an audio jack. Most video cameras come with 10 cents worth of micrphone. I bought an auxiliary micrphone, about 65 dollars and mounted it on my camera. The audio from that mic is auswome. It can be set to two different sound pickup patterns. All around, and distance. I have pointed my camera across tracks prior to a runby, and heard birds in the trees on the other side.
If no audio jack is available, make sure you get one on your next camera, and never use the internal mic. Period.

jim1522@aol.com

> Don't pitch your video camers until you
> check it for an audio jack. Most video
> cameras come with 10 cents worth of
> micrphone. I bought an auxiliary micrphone,
> about 65 dollars and mounted it on my
> camera. The audio from that mic is auswome.
> It can be set to two different sound pickup
> patterns. All around, and distance. I have
> pointed my camera across tracks prior to a
> runby, and heard birds in the trees on the
> other side.
> If no audio jack is available, make sure you
> get one on your next camera, and never use
> the internal mic. Period.

My camera is equiped with a mike jack and I use a plu-in mike with a distant and broad setting. When the whistle blows it is picked up by the camera and when it stops blowing there is a short delay before the sound returns to normal.

I agree with the other posts about too much smoke. I remember two NYC mikes pulling a coal drag out of Cincy in full stride and they didn't put out that much smoke.

eburger1@san.rr.com

I agree with your statements if the audience of the runby is a group of buffs. If it is families, a lot of whistle and bell are crowd pleasers.

Now, to your audio. The mic advice others have given is valuable, but you need one more thing before you get the audio you want -- a portable mixer.

The long and short of it is that you cannot adjust the volume input on most consumer cameras, and all have limiters. The limiter kicking in at loud sounds is what casues most of your break-up. In the pro world, limiters are the devil. If you ever catch a pro using it, they are doing it as a safety catch or thaty aren't really a pro ;-).

The limiter compresses the top end of your sound. Combined with other circuitry that attempts to bump up the "gain" when there are low noises, your camera tries to make a crivket and a whistle all the same volume.

An external mixer will help you control the sound going in. It isn't perfect, but it works.

Most railfan videos on the market are shot with lousy audio, so the bar of acceptability is down in the basement.

However, with a little care and effort, you too can be making some really good sounding videos.

Rob

PS: and don't set up on the ballast next to a grade crossing or other place where the whistle is expected.

trains@robertjohndavis.com

When doing a runby, I would try to do one good grade crossing sequence maybe 500 feet before the beginning of the photo line and let the 1522 speak the rest of the time. There is far too much senseless whistling in most runbys (and trips). We were guilty of the smoke thing a lot of times also, and it doesn't make for a great shot and in steam days would earn the fireman a "smoke letter".
It's amazing the things people want you to do. Blow the whistle, ring the bell, make lots of smoke, slip the drivers......
I had a Canon A1 Digital Hi-8 video camera where the audio had pots on each channel and it did an excellent job taming the 1522's shotgun exhaust. Unfortunately it spent more time in the shop than shooting video and I finally sold it for junk.
I haven't heard anyone's video where the 1522 didn't overload the audio.

frisco1522@sbcglobal.net

> I agree with your statements if the audience
> of the runby is a group of buffs. If it is
> families, a lot of whistle and bell are
> crowd pleasers.

> Now, to your audio. The mic advice others
> have given is valuable, but you need one
> more thing before you get the audio you want
> -- a portable mixer.

> The long and short of it is that you cannot
> adjust the volume input on most consumer
> cameras, and all have limiters. The limiter
> kicking in at loud sounds is what casues
> most of your break-up. In the pro world,
> limiters are the devil. If you ever catch a
> pro using it, they are doing it as a safety
> catch or thaty aren't really a pro ;-).

> The limiter compresses the top end of your
> sound. Combined with other circuitry that
> attempts to bump up the "gain"
> when there are low noises, your camera tries
> to make a crivket and a whistle all the same
> volume.

> An external mixer will help you control the
> sound going in. It isn't perfect, but it
> works.

> Most railfan videos on the market are shot
> with lousy audio, so the bar of
> acceptability is down in the basement.

> However, with a little care and effort, you
> too can be making some really good sounding
> videos.

> Rob

> PS: and don't set up on the ballast next to
> a grade crossing or other place where the
> whistle is expected.

All good information, Rob. However I think most people don't want to be dragging more equipment around with them through the weeds than they have to. That's why I origially suggested a camera with acceptable audio. It's so you don't have to drag around mixers and extra microphones and whatever else. Cameras like this are rare, but available. No, I don't own one myself so I can't hand out models to look for,(Mine's the usual piece of junk) but I have amateur video tapes shot by railfan friends with what sounds like totally uncompressed sound. If there is an alc, or agc in there I certainly cannot hear it.
If one wants a camera with good audio, search the Chaski board for Roger Holmes. Email him and ask what he was using for a camera in 2000, and also what his son was using. Both were decent, but one was better than the other. They also had about a 200X zoom and auto stabilization. The videos they sent me appeared professional in all respects. They're now using newer cameras, I think, but this shows better stuff is around.
Mark D.


mnmach@lakes.com

> When doing a runby, I would try to do one
> good grade crossing sequence maybe 500 feet
> before the beginning of the photo line and
> let the 1522 speak the rest of the time.
> There is far too much senseless whistling in
> most runbys (and trips). We were guilty of
> the smoke thing a lot of times also, and it
> doesn't make for a great shot and in steam
> days would earn the fireman a "smoke
> letter".
> It's amazing the things people want you to
> do. Blow the whistle, ring the bell, make
> lots of smoke, slip the drivers......
> I had a Canon A1 Digital Hi-8 video camera
> where the audio had pots on each channel and
> it did an excellent job taming the 1522's
> shotgun exhaust. Unfortunately it spent more
> time in the shop than shooting video and I
> finally sold it for junk.
> I haven't heard anyone's video where the
> 1522 didn't overload the audio.

A friend of mine sent me a video he shot of 1522 climbing Rolla Hill with the NRHS convention train. The exhaust of that engine is so loud the mike shut down before it even came into view around the curve! But that whistle! -- oh, boy, what a fabulous sound.


K4s1361@hotmail.com

> A loud "AMEN!!" to that! I detest
> all that black smoke - it is only there for
> the photographers, and is done to show
> movement. In the steam era, only a new or
> unskilled fireman would make that much
> smoke. The SP's requirement for a
> properly-fired steam locomotive was a slight
> brownish haze above the stack. I love it
> when the weather is cool and the steam makes
> those wondeful clouds of white water vapor.
> :)

I have very little experience with oil burners but I can tell you that a tender load of crap coal will almost certainly result in lots of black smoke while still making very little steam. Sometimes lots of smoke and a good engineer are the only way you can get over the road.

John Bohon


jhbohon@yahoo.com

Regarding the previous comments on the extra smoke on runbys:

Photographers of the past and the early days of preservation, as well as photographers today in Britian did not associate smoke with pollution. (The British refer to the smoke as "clag".)

Rather, smoke was a sign of prosperity, and was viewed as something atmospheric in appearance; something to set the tone for the picture. A very good example of this is some of the Depression era and WII era public art murals that were painted of trains and factories. Nearly all of them depicted vast quantities of smoke coming from the stacks. It made the background of the picture, and symbolized prosperity, not pollution and inefficiency.

We have a new generation of photographers now that want a prototypical look, or view the presence of smoke as symbolizing pollution and inefficiency. That is understandable, but not always a universal opinion; and old habits die hard for some.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a


james@survivingworldsteam.com

Mark, if you look at the tape I sent you, today's cheaper cameras can't handle the DB level of the whistle in the VIDEO section. Mine comes up with distorted video when audio DB exceeds some level, what level I don't know.

Fitz's Steam Railfan page
fitzrr@pioneer.net