Just out of curiousity, when EMD was taking trade-ins of old F units for 2nd generation GP's and SD's, why?

Since they weren't selling the trade-ins like a car dealer sell used cars-, was the reason for accepting the old units that EMD could get a better price on scrap, certain componenents were refurbishable/recyclable or was it just slick financing?

PS I think ALCO did the same with old FA's and PA's..



Superheater62@yahoo.com

> Just out of curiousity, when EMD was taking
> trade-ins of old F units for 2nd generation
> GP's and SD's, why?

> Since they weren't selling the trade-ins
> like a car dealer sell used cars-, was the
> reason for accepting the old units that EMD
> could get a better price on scrap, certain
> componenents were refurbishable/recyclable
> or was it just slick financing?

> PS I think ALCO did the same with old FA's
> and PA's..

Generally, it was all of the above.

Lots of components on the trade-ins had substantial value. I believe the buyers of new units often negotiated price concessions based on reusing selected rebuilt components. The Blomberg trucks were a particularly good example. And components that weren't appropriate for new units could be remanufactured as utex components for older units. The parts business was and is important to EMD, and a lot of it involves remanufacturing used "cores".


jbwest@att.net

They also wanted to make sure there was no "secondary" market so everthing that was traded and not remanufacutred "In-house" went to Pilet Bros with the caveat that it must be scrapped!

v-scarpitti@att.net

> They also wanted to make sure there was no
> "secondary" market so everthing
> that was traded and not remanufacutred
> "In-house" went to Pilet Bros with
> the caveat that it must be scrapped!

Greetings:
And almost everything that went to Pilet was, a notable exception: former CB&Q E-5A No. 9905 "Silver Pilot".
The late Herbert N.W. Hansen, then President of the Illinois Railway Museum talked EMD into allowing Pilet to sell him the locomotive to go with a former CB&Q "Nebraska Zephyr" articulated trainset which he had also purchased (from the CB&Q).
Hansen and the Museum later had a most acrimonious falling out over these and other equipment in the Hansen collection. Some of these although paid for personally by Hansen, had been negotiated for using Illinois Railway Museum letterhead stationary, leading to questions as to whether the price or availability of the equipment had been affected by the perception that the owner was dealing with the Museum. Herb often stated publicly that he planned to donate the collection to the Museum "when it became advantagious tax-wise". Instead, he began to sell equipment (notably three former CB&Q heavyweight day coaches). The Museum was preparing to seek legal redress in the matter when a settlement was reached. The remaining equipment stayed at IRM.
This can be read as a cautionary tale regarding privately owned equipment in a non-profit setting.
Ironicly, Hansen died in his hometown of Elgin, Illinois on the same day that the 9905 and the Nebraska Zephyr passed through on one of their forays off Museum property.
J.David

jdconrad@snet.net

> And almost everything that went to Pilet
> was, a notable exception: former CB&Q
> E-5A No. 9905 "Silver Pilot".
> The late Herbert N.W. Hansen, then President
> of the Illinois Railway Museum talked EMD
> into allowing Pilet to sell him the
> locomotive to go with a former CB&Q
> "Nebraska Zephyr" articulated
> trainset which he had also purchased (from
> the CB&Q).

I wasn't aware that the Silver Pilot was not the original motive power for the Nebraska Zephyr trainset. Was there only one unit during the service life of the trainset? Or, were there several interchangeable E units, and did the Pilot ever pull that specific trainset in revenue service on the Q?


mckay1995@comcast.net

The Nebraska Zephyr trainset at IRM is one of two trains built by Budd's for the second Twin Zephyrs in or about 1936. Each train made a round-trip Chicago-Minneapolis in one day. Motive power for each train was an EMC Winton 201A powered shovel-nose locomotive.

The E-5's came along in 1940 and joined the Wintons in this service.

A new pair of Twin Zephyrs came from Budd's in 1947 and the older trains then became the Nebraska Zephyrs.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> The Nebraska Zephyr trainset at IRM is one
> of two trains built by Budd's for the second
> Twin Zephyrs in or about 1936. Each train
> made a round-trip Chicago-Minneapolis in one
> day. Motive power for each train was an EMC
> Winton 201A powered shovel-nose locomotive.

> The E-5's came along in 1940 and joined the
> Wintons in this service.

> A new pair of Twin Zephyrs came from Budd's
> in 1947 and the older trains then became the
> Nebraska Zephyrs.

Just for clarification:

Does this mean the shovel-noses and E-5's were switched around occasionally (for service and maintenance)?

Also, had Silver Pilot ever pulled the trainset that it's currently matched to in revenue service?

Sorry for splitting hairs. Just curious.

mckay1995@comcast.net

> Does this mean the shovel-noses and E-5's
> were switched around occasionally (for
> service and maintenance)?

There were several shovel-nosed power cars and matching B units that were cycled between different long distance and Chicago-Aurora commuters. The CB&Q focused on maxmizing the utilization of their passenger (and freight) locomotives and avoided holding them for specific service.

> Also, had Silver Pilot ever pulled the
> trainset that it's currently matched to in
> revenue service?

Yes, it pulled this trainset many times - both alone and with other E-units.

altoonaroundhouse@umich.edu

Before the E-5's arrived there were the two shovel nose locomotives, one for each Twin Zephyr, and two others (A-B sets) for the two Denver Zephyr trains. There were no spare Diesels and protect power was two streamlined 4-6-4's both named Aeolus. I suspect the Q could borrow the EMC 501-502 box cabs if the demonstrators were in town.

After the E-5's arrived, the TZ's + DZ were the Q's premier trains so I would guess the new engines got those jobs and bumped the Wintons to lesser trains.

Perhaps there's a CB&Q expert out there that can clarify what jobs the shovel noses drew after the E-5's arrived.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

If I'm not mistaken I think 1 went from Omaha to Kahsas City. One of my exs father was brakeman on DZ, said it figured out to 80 cents an hour. Big money back then........Wooly

> Before the E-5's arrived there were the two
> shovel nose locomotives, one for each Twin
> Zephyr, and two others (A-B sets) for the
> two Denver Zephyr trains. There were no
> spare Diesels and protect power was two
> streamlined 4-6-4's both named Aeolus. I
> suspect the Q could borrow the EMC 501-502
> box cabs if the demonstrators were in town.

> After the E-5's arrived, the TZ's + DZ were
> the Q's premier trains so I would guess the
> new engines got those jobs and bumped the
> Wintons to lesser trains.

> Perhaps there's a CB&Q expert out there
> that can clarify what jobs the shovel noses
> drew after the E-5's arrived.


wooly421@charter.net

> If I'm not mistaken I think 1 went from
> Omaha to Kahsas City. One of my exs father
> was brakeman on DZ, said it figured out to
> 80 cents an hour. Big money back
> then........Wooly

CB&Q "Silver Pilot" started life as 9911A. 9909 was built specifically for the Silver Steak Zephyr. 9910A/B, 9911A/B and 9912A/B were built to power the Exposition Flyer. C&S 9950A/B and FW&D 9980A/B were acquired for the Texas Zephyr. 9913 was built later in 1940 to power the "Q"'s share of the joint Q/Rock Island Zephyr-Rocket. 9914A/B and 9915A/B were built in 1941 and allowed both of the streamlined 4-6-4s to have the "stainless steel bedpans" removed from their backs and were purchased to dieselize the Black Hawk between Chicago and Minneapolis. These units joined with earlier E5s to create a power pool that covered the Black Hawk, Exposition Flyer, Advance Flyer, Fast Mail and the Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr. 9909 went to the General Pershing Zephyr in the mid-1940 to replace the last shovelnose, 9908 (preserved at MOT in St. Louis). This much assigned E5 returned to the moved back to the Silver Streak Zephyr in 1942 and then was sent to Texas in 1945 to cover the Sam Houston Zephyr. This information comes courtesy of Burlington Bulletin No. 10 and was compiled by Jim Sandrin.

As for the EA and EB shovelnose units, Burlington Bulletin No. 13 is dedicated to all the shovelnoses and was written by Hol Wagner. I will quote a paragraph which sum up the end of the line for the six units.....

"The six Denver Zephyr and Twin Zephyr power units of 1936 were assigned to the general passenger pool in 1951. The four A-units had been used in Chicago suburban service in 1949-50 before being converted into B-units at West Burlington in 1951. Replaced in the passenger pool by E9's, the first two (9905 and 9907A) were dismantled in 1955, followed by the remaining four in 1957.

Mike Spoor's four volumes on the "Q" done for Morning Sun Books have photos of the units wedged between standard E units in the early '50's and they seemed to draw the Empire Builder quite often.

They are all gone but 9903 still needs to be preserved and restored. It is stored at Relco in Minooka, IL, and is for sale. Any takers?

Don C.



http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net

> Since they weren't selling the trade-ins
> like a car dealer sell used cars

Simply put, once the locomotive went back to EMD and then across the track to the scrappers, it was 100% known to have beentaken out of the "used locomotive" market. EMD was in the business of selling new locomotives, not recycling ones they had taken in trade in. Having purchased a number of "remanufactured" locomotives over the years, I know that EMD was not anxious to cooperate with the remanufacturers. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to buy parts directly from EMD and then only if they would cooperate. For instance, remanufacturers might by a "new" EMD part from a Class 1 railroad, who were allowed by EMD to buy directly from EMD. Other remanufacturers developed their own sources of aftermarket suppliers.

The transit agency I used to work for purchased $13.5M worth of new units from EMD, and when I wanted to buy repair parts, I still had to "prove" I was a customer before they'd take my order.

gfpat420@aol.com