Thanks. By adding those few clarifying sentences you turned an otherwise worthless story into something with meaningful information that someone reading these posts might retain in the back of his craw and be able to use in the future when hiring someone to do a tube job. I certainly will remember that little tidbit of information. Thats all I was commenting about.

Yes there are many self proclaimed steam experts and many bonafide steam experts, how do you know who you are dealing with without asking the person to produce a resume?

rickrailrd@aol.com

> Yes there are many self proclaimed steam
> experts and many bonafide steam experts, how
> do you know who you are dealing with without
> asking the person to produce a resume?

And whats wrong with that? And even then you should check the resume references, etc. unless
you really believe in blind faith.

Bill

heisler1607@earthlink.net

I find it hard to imagine that a boiler shop would not know to bead the tubes over. All tubes in a fire tube boiler must be beaded or flared. The tube needs to hold or stay the tube sheet. If the tubes are straight on the ends the tube will allow the tube sheet to slip over the end and the tube sheet will not be held into place. All flat surfaces must have enough stays to hold it's shape. This is in all boiler textbooks even the most basic ones. The firebox side is always to be beaded over even on stationary boilers, the smokebox side must be at least flared.

Steam Railroading Message Board
tgears@dca.net

Rick - without fail, always get references and network around them too. Hiring anybody off the street may result in the sort of event explained above. Several years ago, I almost hired a boiler company to do a job which fortunately never was funded without adequately checking out examples of their work. I saw some photos of one of their products later and was aghast at the lack of quality.

I can't mention enough the benefits of attending the TRAIN and ARM conferences and meeting folks face to face. You develop a network to consult about experience with different consultants and contractors before you get caught.

BTW, nobody in this or any business is universally popular. Everybody has had their problem jobs, so one bad report isn't indefenseable. You just don't want to se a pattern forming.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

> OK you Steam Guys. ( Yeah, you. The one with
> the goop under your fingernails and the
> freshly exposed bleeding knuckle...)

Response to this thread has been great...after all what could be simpler than re-flueing a steam locomotive ? Thank you all for sharing insight and experiences. This is what it this board is all about!!

Bill

heisler1607@earthlink.net

My grandad has probably forgotten more about boilers than I will ever know. As you know,traction engines and model lokeys fall under state rather than federal oversite. So, depending on your location, inspection can be anything from quite stringent to almost a simple formality.
Our local club got a new young gung ho inspector a few years back that had, shall we say, his own interesting interperatation of the state code, and an attitude.
Inspections that first year were a miserable ordeal, and we got a few red tags on stuff that we probably would not have with almost any other inspector. A lot of people were very hot over it. We again had similar problems, though not as many, the second year.
Rather than continue to fight him, my grandad made a point of calling this guy up during that winter and having him come and observe, step by step, when he retubed his VFT...
We haven't had much problems since, mostly because the inspector found out we weren't just a bunch of crazy yahoos playing with bombs.

> I find it hard to imagine that a boiler shop
> would not know to bead the tubes over. All
> tubes in a fire tube boiler must be beaded
> or flared. The tube needs to hold or stay
> the tube sheet. If the tubes are straight on
> the ends the tube will allow the tube sheet
> to slip over the end and the tube sheet will
> not be held into place. All flat surfaces
> must have enough stays to hold it's shape.
> This is in all boiler textbooks even the
> most basic ones. The firebox side is always
> to be beaded over even on stationary
> boilers, the smokebox side must be at least
> flared.

I worked on a couple of locomotives out in CA about 10 years ago (will not mention where) that were flued by a professional boiler shop. They simply rolled both ends of the tubes and seal welded the firebox ends. And yes, they passed Hartford Inspectors muster and yes they leaked like a screen door!! Eventually both locomotives got removed from service. One for terminal fluesheet cracks and a beautifully corrugated crownsheet (a present from the previous owner), the other because the flue ends and adjoining seal welds had been overworked by daily re-rolling and the flue ends began to split off the tubes while the locomotive was under steam.

Not cool at all.

earlkctsr489@webtv.net

If this is regarding a certain engine being restored in New England, which hired a certain boiler company well known for building steam launch boilers, I have heard about it. The flues were put in flush because the boiler company ordered then too short, and tried to go with them anyway. An installation like that is no more legal in stationary practice, than in locomotive practice.

> But locomotive boilers are not operated like
> basic fire tube heating and package boilers
> which typicaly have many fewer water / steam
> exchanges and rapid fluctuations in
> temperature and pressure as operating
> conditions change. What might hold out for
> years in a heating boiler won't last a
> season in a locomotive boiler.

I must disagree with your statement that package boilers don't see rapid fluctuations in temperature. Your typical package boiler sees much more abuse in this regard than a locomotive boiler. For example, lets say that a package boiler in some factory is set up with a cut in pressure of 140, and a cut out pressure of 150. When the gage reads 140, the forced draft fan starts up to do a pre-purge of any fumes in the furnace. That is completely cold air blowing through the boiler for 1, or 2 minutes. Then the burner lights. Like a flamethrower. Once the flame stabilizes, it goes right up to full fuel. This is equivalent to a locomotive running flat out. When the pressure reaches 150, the fuel is cut off. Right away. Then you have a post-purge, where the forced draft fan runs for another 1 or 2 minutes, pulling cold air through the furnace. Then it starts the cycle allover again. I have heard of package boilers that when you open the smokebox, it is completely white inside. Why white? Because it gets so hot in the smokebox, that all of the carbon is burned out of the soot lying in there.

No locomotive is abused to that extent in this day and age. I reiterate, tubesheets are tubesheets, and a tube job that will stand up in a stationary boiler will stand up in a locomotive.

> I find it hard to imagine that a boiler shop
> would not know to bead the tubes over. All
> tubes in a fire tube boiler must be beaded
> or flared. The tube needs to hold or stay
> the tube sheet. If the tubes are straight on
> the ends the tube will allow the tube sheet
> to slip over the end and the tube sheet will
> not be held into place. All flat surfaces
> must have enough stays to hold it's shape.
> This is in all boiler textbooks even the
> most basic ones. The firebox side is always
> to be beaded over even on stationary
> boilers, the smokebox side must be at least
> flared.

Tom, with all due respect, the tubes do not have to be flared or beaded in the firebox end, check the ASME code. A straight roll is fine along with a "heat sync" weld. If this is done right, the tubes will not allow the tube sheet to move.


Muss405@yahoo.com

Okay I am with you on this one. I have not seen it done but like I have learned in life there is a lot more than what I have seen. The important part is the stay the tube sheet and provide a steam tight seal.

Tom

> Tom, with all due respect, the tubes do not
> have to be flared or beaded in the firebox
> end, check the ASME code. A straight roll is
> fine along with a "heat sync"
> weld. If this is done right, the tubes will
> not allow the tube sheet to move.


Steam Railroading Message Board
tgears1@home.com

>RLM and HKA are very reputable sources--mark my word, they are among the very best in the steam business.

Okay I am with you on this one. I have not
> seen it done but like I have learned in life
> there is a lot more than what I have seen.
> The important part is the stay the tube
> sheet and provide a steam tight seal.

> Tom

At the Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad you will find that the last 5 locomotive tube jobs have not been rolled, but have been welded to the tube sheets.

Tube sheets often are found with extensive warpage created by many tube change-outs throughout the boiler's life, caused by expansion of the tube holes in the sheet; the metal displaced has to go somewhere and creates bulges.

Tube holes can be found with "star" cracking (little hairline cracks radiating from the tube hole out. Some of the worst cracking can occur in the back tube sheet between the top row of tubes and the knuckle due to over-rolling and the flexing of the knuckle during expansion and contraction cycles.

We do not do a full penetration weld. What is done is a fillet weld (the tubes stick-out of the tube holes about 3/16"; the weld does penetrate the tube sheet about 10-15%). In the finished product the fillet weld looks a lot like a rolled and beaded tube.

If there is star cracking. the cracks are ground out and welded up prior to slipping the tubes into the boiler. An additional strengthening of the star cracked areas is the tube itself, when welded onto the tube sheet.

We also weld the tubes to the front tubesheet.
There is a tool available for mechanically cutting through the weld bead when tubes are to be removes after FRA 15 years.

Our weldor (welder is machine; weldor is the man)was certified in the Navy to piece together chrome-moly alloy water tubes) We are fortunate to have found this man- there has been no leakage in any of his tube welding jobs for us. He uses 6011 rod to "boil out" the impurities in the tubesheet (the tubesheet absorbs impurities from the fire). The ends of the tubes are polished with sandpaper, grinding discs, or wire wheel prior to insertion into the boiler. The tube holes in the sheet are also polished with various tools in a die grinder. The entire tubesheet is polished with a disc grinder during a search for cracks and pitting.

Finding a skillful weldor is the main challenge for making this procedure work correctly.

The welded boilers have never given us trouble through years of service. We burn crankcase oil, where the fireman must be consatantly vigilent.
A bad slip of the engine would require a quick response from the fireman is needed to fill the firebox with enough fire to a) keep the fire from being sucked-out and b)prevent cold air from passing through the firebox. Previously, a slip of the fireman could result in up to 100 rolled and beaded (with and without copper ferrels) tubes leaking, requiring re-rolling of the tubes with resultant tube thinning and tube sheet cracking and distortion. Our welded tube jobs have been trouble-free.



steamrr@mashell.com

And these lokies get real use too. Thanks for the clarification Jack, and does your welldor travel?

Dave

lathro19@idt.net