OK you Steam Guys. ( Yeah, you. The one with the goop under your fingernails and the freshly exposed bleeding knuckle...) You need to have someone competent to install a new batch of flues turnkey in a plain ol saturated steam locomotive. Nothing fancy, mind you. You seek boiler shops with the right qualifications to keep your FRA/ASME pedigree unsullied...The question is: What importance in terms of contractor selection do you place on experience with locomotive boilers as opposed to other technically qualified experience ? How many of you would not accept a bid from a company who has never done a locomotive boiler ?

heisler1607@earthlink.net

The first flues I had ever rolled at the tender age of 17 were the frst i had ever even SEEN rolled, in a Keck Gonnerman traction engine. The only thing to keep in mind is don't over roll, use plenty of oil. Get some boiler tools and just do it. The only thing a boiler owner has to do be someone ASME qulified is welding. Contract boiler companies by in large don't have experience with any thing but package boilers, and rivited boilers freak most of 'em out.
They all feel free to charge way too @#$!!! much,though.
bythe way, the new regs allow you to do most of your own work.
Despite this, and what anyone may say to the contrary, the FRA wants nothing more than to be rid of steam.
If I can succesfully install flues, so can you!

Bill, 17 is an oil burner with a very short firebox measured front to back. You can roll in tubes against the holes in the sheet, or use copper ferrules, or seal weld them after rolling.

Better yet, I would go to a boiler shop since my only roller is a manual job and they can roll (and prosser) mechanically, which would shorten the job and therefore make it cheaper. My choice would be a shop that has done locomotive type boilers before, and preferably oil fired, rather than a shop that is accustomed to low pressure heating boilers or water tube industrial stuff, unless you have an experienced steam locomotive person write the specs and look over the boilermakers shoulder.

I figure the first set of tubes is cheap, and the second is very expensive if it hasn't been 15 years since the first set. Experience is one way to make sure the first set lives a long and useful life. An extra thousand dollars to get a job from a vendor with a proven track record is cheap insurance.

BTW, lots of good tube installation recipes. Jack Anderson welds them in full penetration and runs the hell out of his engines with good results. I just spoke with a welder who swears you can only get good seals with 7018 rod and no other last week. I have seen fine seal welds with a MIG setup and with 6010 too. Again, experience of the installer.

Another favorite recipe ingredient: heavy wall tubes. I don't like to use thinner than 11 gage for 2" (not that some don't do fine with 13).

Dave



lathro19@idt.net

If all that you are interested in is having the new tubes installed, then any code shop that has experience with fire tube boilers (i.e. package boilers) will do. Tube sheets are tube sheets, regardless of what kind of boiler they are in. However if there is other boiler work to be done, and there always is, such as doing the inspections and calculations for your new form 4, etc., then you had better find someone with experience specific to riveted locomotive boilers.

> If all that you are interested in is having
> the new tubes installed, then any code shop
> that has experience with fire tube boilers
> (i.e. package boilers) will do. Tube sheets
> are tube sheets, regardless of what kind of
> boiler they are in.

But locomotive boilers are not operated like basic fire tube heating and package boilers which typicaly have many fewer water / steam exchanges and rapid fluctuations in temperature and pressure as operating conditions change. What might hold out for years in a heating boiler won't last a season in a locomotive boiler.

No, you need a much stouter and more robust installation. I am sure there are boiler shops that will do a good job, but again, experience and success in previous locomotive applications is proof.

17 is a bit the size and type of system as Tweetsie - who does their boiler work? Not too far away.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

>

Make sure you get someone who KNOWS what they are doing, all types of boilers are NOT the same. A steam locomotive is like NOTHING else.

Years ago there was a certain well-known group with its usual know-it-all experts, that hired a Marine/stationery boiler outfit to re-tube their steam locomotive. After paying out the big bucks along came the Federal man who promptly canned the whole thing! They had to remove all the tubes and start all over again.

OK you Steam Guys. ( Yeah, you. The one with
> the goop under your fingernails and the
> freshly exposed bleeding knuckle...) You
> need to have someone competent to install a
> new batch of flues turnkey in a plain ol
> saturated steam locomotive. Nothing fancy,
> mind you. You seek boiler shops with the
> right qualifications to keep your FRA/ASME
> pedigree unsullied...The question is: What
> importance in terms of contractor selection
> do you place on experience with locomotive
> boilers as opposed to other technically
> qualified experience ? How many of you would
> not accept a bid from a company who has
> never done a locomotive boiler ?


oldtimetrains@rrmail.com

We are planning on going with 11 gauge 2" tubes, which is what came out of her.. We hadn't planned on seal-welding them, rather thought that conventional rolled/beaded install would do. With our kind of service do you believe welding necessary ? I have a call into a loco-experienced firm but they are quite backed up so it is more than cost but possibly a real schedule hit.

heisler1607@earthlink.net

I know your locomotive, your railroad and your local boilermakers. I think you will be giving the engine a bit of exercise on your regular train, and given the small firebox, there is a fair chance of enough thermal differentiation to open up some leakers, and seal welding might help.

Here's an idea: Get the local guys to guarantee the work so if something does open up, they come fix it no charge for X number of operating days. 100 days will get you guys years of operation.

I will of course gladly help if I can with specifications.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

>Just a note from a guy that has done this and that has done a lot of talking in the past few weeks about this very subject with a few of the industry "big hitters."

First, having been to a few FRA meetings, I must tell you what came out of the last meeting I was at with our region rep and a few others, I won't mention names, I do not speak for any body but myself. I was told that FRA DOES NOT regulate welding. Though ASME code is used, and though you must clear a proper procedure before doing any type of work, having a certified welder from a "r stamp" shop is NOT needed. We were also told that our own shop welders could simply take a welding test and have it examined by any testing lab and that would do. The key here, get a third party involved to certify the fact that your welder is a good one.

I believe that there are many good ideas in this thread, however, I feel differently on a few issues.

1. If you role and weld, okay, if you simply weld, okay. However, from what I have learned as a welder and a boiler makers apprentice, DO NOT use Copper ferrules and weld! Without too much detail, there are things that happen to the copper and the flue sheet when you weld around the two. There have been studies that show adverse affects, at the same time, there are stories of guys doing it and it working.

2. As far as welding is concerned, ASME in most cases calls for a 7018 cover pass and in most cases only allows 6010-6011 on root passes for 100% penetration welding. Cover passes using only 6010-6011 I feel should be looked at closely, making sure that proper procedure is followed. I think you will find that the best and most reliable cover pass will be a cover pass made in 7018.

3. One comment I have not seen made. Replacing flues is not your only job. In a good flue job, you should make a very good inspection of both flue sheets before you re-flue. Flue sheets can bend and move. They can also thin out and pit. Making sure that you have a good flue sheet is just as important as finding somebody good to do the job.

4. I am not one to feel that a standard boiler shop can not do the work. Our local shop has guys that worked on the UP and did this for a living; the art has been passed on. If I were in your shoes, I would take all of what you have gotten off this page as good advise, learn as much more as you can, make a few more phone calls, then call the shops, look for the right answers. If you get a guy with the answers you are looking for, see what happens. I believe also that you can do it on your own. See if you can find a shop that will come in and do four flues for you and see if they will teach you. It may surprise you; they may have the time to do four and would be willing to teach. It is a win win; they get a bit of money and don't have to do the whole thing.

5. There is so much more you may want to talk about before you do this. A few examples, sandblasting the interior of your boiler, painting the interior of you boiler, old patches in the boiler that may need to come out. Thin spots in the belly, bad course joints, a thin steam dome, wrapper sheets that are thin and so on and so on. This list goes on for miles.

I am no expert, I just wanted to share what I have. I enjoy discussions like this and it has been fun for me. I believe that we need to share and share alike in this industry. I am more than willing to help where I can, please keep in touch

John E. Rimmasch
CMO
HVRR

Bill, 17 is an oil burner with a very short
> firebox measured front to back. You can roll
> in tubes against the holes in the sheet, or
> use copper ferrules, or seal weld them after
> rolling.

> Better yet, I would go to a boiler shop
> since my only roller is a manual job and
> they can roll (and prosser) mechanically,
> which would shorten the job and therefore
> make it cheaper. My choice would be a shop
> that has done locomotive type boilers
> before, and preferably oil fired, rather
> than a shop that is accustomed to low
> pressure heating boilers or water tube
> industrial stuff, unless you have an
> experienced steam locomotive person write
> the specs and look over the boilermakers
> shoulder.

> I figure the first set of tubes is cheap,
> and the second is very expensive if it
> hasn't been 15 years since the first set.
> Experience is one way to make sure the first
> set lives a long and useful life. An extra
> thousand dollars to get a job from a vendor
> with a proven track record is cheap
> insurance.

> BTW, lots of good tube installation recipes.
> Jack Anderson welds them in full penetration
> and runs the hell out of his engines with
> good results. I just spoke with a welder who
> swears you can only get good seals with 7018
> rod and no other last week. I have seen fine
> seal welds with a MIG setup and with 6010
> too. Again, experience of the installer.

> Another favorite recipe ingredient: heavy
> wall tubes. I don't like to use thinner than
> 11 gage for 2" (not that some don't do
> fine with 13).

> Dave


jrimmasch@yahoo.com

I second what Joh has said about both FRA and seal welding with copper ferrules and apologise for not being clearer about the ferrules in the earlier posting.

FRA cites "national or industry standards" in their new regulations, so if anybody has a copy of steam age railroad standards and proceedures books that can be a great place to begin. ASME is readily available in most libraries or online.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Some body give me a yea or neigh on this.

when removing flues from a boiler never take them all at once leave one or more in the center (or around it) to keep the flue sheets from bowing out

my only experience on actually doing flues is with traction engines and this is the way it is supposed to happen according to every traction engine book I have, also a former C&O shop man told me that they left 4 of the big flues until the rest where replaced



Onesteam@fiberia.com

> But locomotive boilers are not operated like
> basic fire tube heating and package boilers
> which typicaly have many fewer water / steam
> exchanges and rapid fluctuations in
> temperature and pressure as operating
> conditions change. What might hold out for
> years in a heating boiler won't last a
> season in a locomotive boiler.

Many stationary boilers are force fired and experience many of the same abuses that locomotive boilers do.

> No, you need a much stouter and more robust
> installation. I am sure there are boiler
> shops that will do a good job, but again,
> experience and success in previous
> locomotive applications is proof.

Just what is a "stouter and more robust" installation? Tubes are installed too loose, too tight, or just right.

> 17 is a bit the size and type of system as
> Tweetsie - who does their boiler work? Not
> too far away.

> Dave

As far as "seal welding" is concerned, tubes are to be held tight against the tube sheet by the roll only. The weld is put there as a "heat sync" only. Without a heat sync weld, the tube expands and contracts much more than the tube sheet does. You want the weld to leak because you do not want to depend on the weld holding in the tube. This is the job of the roll. If the weld is what is holding the tube in the sheet, then water will get between the tube and the tube sheet and cause both to corrode. I would suggest using 6010 (downhand) for this purpose.


Muss405@yahoo.com

> Years ago there was a certain well-known
> group with its usual know-it-all experts,
> that hired a Marine/stationery boiler outfit
> to re-tube their steam locomotive. After
> paying out the big bucks along came the
> Federal man who promptly canned the whole
> thing! They had to remove all the tubes and
> start all over again.

As much as I enjoy a good chewing the fat story about working on steam locomotives, this tells me absolutely nothing. There could have been a million reasons why the FRA rejected the boiler, and it may not have been the workmanship of the contractor. If you are going to tell these stories give the reasons why and even cite the FRA inspection report, don't just give blanket statements with no facts. More unneccesary worry has been caused by people going around telling these stories without having the facts then is needed.

I get so upset by this because I was fooled by a self proclaimed steam "expert" once that the steam equipment I had could never be operated because of so and so Federal regulation, only to find out after I had sold off the equipment that what I was told was pure bull! So get the facts!

rickrailrd@aol.com

John , as you say, some good stuff here. But I wont be embarrassed enough to not ask more questions. (I am not ignorant on the issues but sticking a fork in what the common understanding is of the folks confronting the same issues today)

>> 1. If you role and weld, okay, if you simply
> weld, okay.

As I understand it the "state of the art" when it comes to minimizing leaks and potential thermal problems is to weld the flues. But is it mandatory and are folks getting good results without welding ? Ive seen a lot here on proper welding but less on whether it is a must or just a belief that welding is a bit better than rolled/beaded ?

> 2. As far as welding is concerned, ASME in
> most cases calls for a 7018 cover pass.

Duly noted.

> 3. One comment I have not seen made.
> Replacing flues is not your only job. In a
> good flue job, you should make a very good
> inspection of both flue sheets.

Ours are looking good and have been inspected by FRA and boiler contractors. One person was quite suprised they looked as straight as they do. I aint complaining.

> 4. I am not one to feel that a standard
> boiler shop can not do the work.

Everyone has a first time, eh ?

> Find a shop that will come in and do four
> flues for you and see if they will teach
> you.

Would love to do this but at this point am willing
to let out this work. There's a balance between my personal interests and whats best for the organization that owns the engine. And I have a day job, so in the interests of time, etc. If this were mine alone and the schedule and budget were mine alone, you can bet I'd be doing it myself.

> 5. There is so much more you may want to
> talk about before you do this.

We have been needle-scaling the cylindrical courses and plan Apexior coating them before flueing. We are FRA-regulated and have a grip on UT, NDT of metallurgy, etc. as well as a new Form 4 to calculate. FRA regional man has already been inside and made favorable comment.

> I am no expert,

Nor will I ever be.

Bill

> As much as I enjoy a good chewing the fat
> story about working on steam locomotives,
> this tells me absolutely nothing. There
> could have been a million reasons why the
> FRA rejected the boiler, and it may not have
> been the workmanship of the contractor. If
> you are going to tell these stories give the
> reasons why and even cite the FRA inspection
> report, don't just give blanket statements
> with no facts. More unneccesary worry has
> been caused by people going around telling
> these stories without having the facts then
> is needed.

> I get so upset by this because I was fooled
> by a self proclaimed steam
> "expert" once that the steam
> equipment I had could never be operated
> because of so and so Federal regulation,
> only to find out after I had sold off the
> equipment that what I was told was pure
> bull! So get the facts!

I DO HAVE THE FACTS! because I was working in the roundhouse at the time.

There was only one reason it failed Federal boiler inspection, the marine/stationary boiler outfit knew NOTHING about LOCOMOTIVES and they put the tubes in like the boilers they did know. WITHOUT any beading over! The tubes were fit flush and fixed in place. If it had been used this way the tubes would not have held with movement of the locomotive.

All the tubes had to come out and new ones bought and the work done all over again!

MY POINT was get people who KNOW what they are doing NOT people who THINK they know. Witness your run in with an "expert". There are lots of people who are experts with steam locomotives, just ask them they will tell you.

oldtimetrains@rrmail.com