Hello All

I'd also like to point out that the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS is/has been behind one or more of the lawsuits to remove the DL&W 952 from MOT. About a year ago several members, if not the society itself, printed a flyer for passenger trips out of Stroudsburg, including dates, times and advertising the use of Steamtown equipment. Problem was neither Steamtown nor the railroad had ever heard of such plans. Keep that in mind when reading about the adventures of the society.

As for Mr. Hart, I wish him nothing but the best; this industry is much better for him having been a part of it this long. That being said, nature abhors a vacuum, and I'm afraid that’s what the Jim Thorpe operation was becoming for a variety of reasons, not necessarily the fault of Mr. Hart. I don't think the visitor’s bureau, the R&N etc are necessarily terrible people either.

Dave Crosby

Dave,

Point well taken. Certainly the R&N team is experienced, and Andy Muller has proven himself as a railroad owner in many good ways. The R&N has tremendous potential in JT.

The part that gets under my skin is the way it was done. Of course, I am not privvy to all the details, and can only go on what's been in the local papers and talked about around town.

There's a general feeling that things could have been done better in terms of handling the inevitable day when Mr. Hart would no longer be providing services in JT.

Having known George as a distant acquaintence over the past 20 years, I always dreaded the time when there would be a JT without him. I had always hoped it would come with grace and dignity no matter what the situation may be. The scuttlebutt from some folks in JT is that they don't feel it has been handled with such tact.

And that cheapens what should be a celebration of tremendous achievement in historic preservation. Normally, such words are saved for a eulogy. We have the opportunity to say "thank you" to George with him here to enjoy it!

And maybe I am being over sentimental and over nostalgic, but I can't help it. So many wonderful mornings I can remember coasting down the highway into town, looking into the valley and seeing activity around the depot -- frosty fall dawns with #972 getting hot, or the CNJ RS-3 burbling about. JT is a magic place for me, and George has been the magician.

When row houses were going for $10K and no one wanted to touch them, George was there commiting himself to preservation of the great industrial heritage of the region. And, yes, things changed after that morning in 1986 when we found #972 standing with a swindling fire in need of repairs, that to this day, have not been made. I had high hopes when #1098 steamed, but her return was brief.

It's no secret to anyone that reads this board that I have a little bit of personal gratitude for his generation of preservationists and those that came right after. Maybe because I got to know so many of them as a child... and I was fortunate enough to be young at a time when finding steam wasn't that hard to do.

I knew the names of Hart, Blount and Atwood... and came to know those of Hallock, Rowland, Smith and so many others... as just a young boy. Those that I met again later in life impressed me with their commitment. I've been able to spend a little time communicating with Dwight Smith and Ross Rowland, and have not been dissapointed in their tales and lessons. George always struck me as a different breed. He had a work-a-day ethic as simple as his green coaches and black engines. Dwight built a great business, Ross always put on one heck of a show, and George just kind of went about it all quietly.

In the end, we are better off for the contributions of all these men... and those who carry the torch forward.

I would like to see George's forced departure from operating trains in JT happen in a fashion worthy of what he has given.

Rob [/quote]

In reading this story - what I find completely frustrating is that this is a historic site (yard, turntable, station) which has tremendous potential to continue to be used in its historic form to contribute to the local economy, it is half owned by a historic society and a local government, and access to it was just purchased by a railroad that has a proven record of operating excursions and a good sized excursion fleet. I have worked on several site preservation plans - and this is a win-win-win-win as I could ever hope to arrange. Why the CLOCK is there this infighting that is threatening both the site and the future of operations from this site? Is the well established railfan base trying to do anything to bring some sense to this?

I have worked on plans to save sites that were far more complex than this - If preservationists and railfans cannot save this site, what hope is there for others?

Again, I am not trying to villify any of the players involved - I don't have the facts to do that. I am also grateful to George Hart - but I think the best tribute would be to preserve what he saved

From what has been posted it seems the R&N would want to keep the turntable for use by future excursion trains. On the other hand it sounds so confusing this may not be correct. If there is any chance the turntable would not be kept I suggest we make sure the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Harrisburg is contacted as they are in need of one at least 90' long, and this is a 100' turntable. Are you watching Scott?

I for one think that what the town and R&N have done is very under handed. George Hart has done so much for preservation and as others have stated for the town of Jim Thorpe. I seriously wonder what will happen to his equipment once his lease is up. I'm afraid we may see some significant peices scrapped. Everyone should think of what George has preserved, he has done more than his fair share for preservation, lets not forget the George M. Hart Rolling Stock Hall at the RRMPA. He also donated several peices in the RRMPA collection. I for one feel bad for him because in a matter of a year he is losing his Jim Thorpe operation and the Stewartstown RR shut down now he is left without an operating railroad. I hope that once he leaves Jim Thorpe his succesors dont make a penny off of tourist trains. What the RLHS is doing is justified because those tracks were given to them from George and the tracks should be removed if he must leave. Let the county build their own tracks.

Rob

You're 100% right. While a change might have been due in Jim Thorpe in one way or another, the circumstances surrounding the deal were certainly a slap in the face to the man who built the operation. I hope the "bad karma" doesn't follow the new operation because of it.

DBC

The latest word is that unless the County authorities or the R&N people come forward in the next 30 days (the County has written that they have no interest in saving the trackage or turntable and the R&N has been silent) both the trackage and the turntable will go to the scrapper.
Scrapping operations are scheduled to commence on 11/22/04 in order to give the scrapper ample time to remove the rails, clean up the ties and cut up and remove the turntable in pieces before the land lease expires on 12/31/04.
In defense of the L&RHS chapter they did thier best to try and enter meaningfull discussions with the County(owner of the land on which the trackage sits) only to be rebuffed at every turn.
Why the R&N(successor to George Hart as the new tourist train operator) has not stepped forward with an offer for the track/turntable is a mystery for sure. The R&N has repeatedly assurred the County that it will provide service superior to that given by Mr. Harts company. To do that one would think they'd for sure need this trackage and the turntable??? So either they've figured out a way to run trains without track or they don't intend to provide the level of service that was promised!
What a shame to see a perfectly good(needs a lot of TLC) 100' table go to the scrappers! Let's hope the R&N steps up before 11/22!!!!
Ross Rowland

Hello

As for the turntable, it has been sitting in 5 feet of water for the last 15 years at least (it was on my first visit in 1988). I'm sure the damage to the bridge structure and mechanism has been substantial. I'm pretty sure that the bridge would need substantial dollars before being repaired, if that was even possible. The R&N has never needed a turntable in their history of excursion operations, even with steam power. As for as the yard trackage in question; it is adjacent to substantial, usable trackage and sidings in much better condition.

While it would be nice to see the turntable saved, it is a basket case if there ever was one. I can see why the R&N has no interest in it. Its too bad if it does get scrapped, but its certainly not one of a kind, nor a stunning example of its type. It would be a loss, but not a big one.

I'm sure the R&N would have no problem providing excellent service with the trackage and motive power available to them.

DBC

Mr. Cosby makes some valid points regarding other available trackage etc. However, if steam is ever going to have a chance of reappearing as a regular offering(not promised by the R&N) then the turntable is critical as there are no handy wyes in the immediate area and any thoughts of establishing J.Thorpe-Scranton steam excursions (you can turn on the Scranton wye) would need the J.T. table to work.
With Andy Muellers loss of interest in steam in recent years that may not be a factor??
In any event it will be a shame to see it get scrapped, but guess there's no other option unless the County has a last minute change of heart???

If plans proceed for a wye at the east end of the Coalport Bridge (to allow through movements from Reading to the Gorge w/o running around) the turtable will be redundant.

Rob

I had the pleasure to get to know George Hart in 1980 when I became the Superintendent of the Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad. George was then trying to reopen the Stewartstown Railroad and I worked with him on several issues. George has been both a friend and mentor.

15 years ago I visited him at Jim Thorpe. George immediately invited my friends, family and our children into the cab of the steamer. George then offerred me a cab ride. Being as close to the business as I am, (knowing there is another time that I could get one), I asked George if it was ok for my friend to have my offer. George allowed Dave to ride and in the process encouraged another person to appreciate steam locomotives.

I never got the impression with George that he did it for the money. His desire was to promote the rail industry and the value of its preservation. It is not only Jim Thorpe that owes a thank you to George, so I will add mine to the list.

Gary Landrio, Stone Consulting & Design

All this talk of Mr. Harts locomotives and facilities has not included the other equipment like the coaches. I have a distinct interest in what happens to the ex-CNJ 1300 series cars. Up here on the Green Mountain RR we have the largest congregation of the formerly 25 car fleet of 1300's. Mr. Hart has the second largest group. Should this collection be disbanded, I would certainly entertain the thought of moving 1300's to our area.

SJW