I thought I read somewhere quite a ways back when the R&N first signed up with the county that Andy Muller had promised George Hart that the Railtours equipment could be stored in Jim Thorpe until a new home could be found.

With the reopening of the CNJ bridge the R&N would not have to interchange the RTI equipment if it were to be removed from Jim Thorpe to another R&N location. What are the chances of moving at least the passenger cars and the CNJ RS up to Leesport with the RCT&HS or to Temple or Hamburg for that matter just to get them out of Jim Thorpe and immediate danger.

I believe in this current situation contacting the R&LHS would get you nowhere. It may be more constructive to call or write R&N directly and ask them. After all they are major shareholders of the C&S.

Kevin O

Hi Ross,

I respectfully suggest that the chapter allow the property to default to the county, rather than have it scrapped. The continued existence of the infrastructure is worth more to more people - in the big picture - than the Chapter gaining money from its destruction.

If the Chapter would rather scrap it than see it exist for the future, that's a very disturbing situation for a rail history group.

You are right, the R&N can settle the post 12/31 storage problem, but that is a different issue than the 11/22 eviction date put forth by the Chapter.


Rob

It was my understanding, from what I read on this board and others in early summer regarding this situation, that the county DOES NOT WANT the storage track. Nor did the county plan to use its eminent domain authority to acquire the track (thus avoiding a potential financial claim by the society) and had told the society to remove the track. -- Ray

#1 is, by far, the better option.
at least the facility mighthave a future that way..
it has to *exist* for something to be done with it down the line, regardless of what group might do something with it..

groups come and go..who really cares what *people* are running the show as long as the historic artifacts survive?
100 years from now, no one will care if the Lackawanna Chapter still exists or not..or what individual people were in it in 2004..
but having that facility still existing would be priceless..

is the cash from the "scrap value" really worth it?
if a group can no longer care for a facility, even if its not their fault,
whatever option preserves the existance of the facilty should be the priority..
yeah, maybe its "not fair"..but so what?
this is no time for being so stubborn that something gets scrapped rather than go to someone else..
that would just be really stupid political game playing..
IMO, they are saying, "if WE can't have it, then no one can have it! so there!"..
a historic group would scrap something rather than see it go to someone else?
sad..very sad..
you are coming across looking very bad guys..
Scot

Does the historical society have the funding or the resources to do the soil remediation that will probably be required down the road by DER, by its action of the removal of the rails and ties????? This track was mostly part of a locomotive service area and the railroads were not exactly known as great house keepers. As long as no one disturbs the soil, there will be no need for remediation, but let some heavy equipment get started ripping and tearing and you will see one very large and potential litagous mess ensue right next door to a scenic river. Has the society approached the R&N about selling the track to the railroad at a reasonable cost???

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am only one member of the Chapter and not actively involved in its management. Having said that I do support its position on this matter.
The scrapper will start work one month from today(11/22/04) unless the County and/or the R&N step forward and make a reasonable offer for the track and turntable. Seems to me that the trackage is probably not critical to a continuing tourist railroad operation out of Jim Thorpe as there is other more or less duplicative trackage. The turntable is another matter, and the real shame will be to see Mr. Harts coaches, cabooses etc. scrapped in place due to the fact that they are friction bearing and thus not interchangeable. Even though this equipment is in very rough shape it'll be a shame to see a string of open-window coaches cut-up for someones 2006 Toyota!!!
Guess the best we can hope for is for the R&N to have a change of heart?? Ross Rowland

I repeat what others have asked already:

Has the Reading & Northern been approached on this matter, for even temporary evacuation cooperation?

1) no
2) Yes, and the RR hasn't replied
3) Yes, and the RR doesn't want to help/wants nothing to do with it/etc.
4) Yes, and we can't talk about it yet..........

To answer Mr. Mitchells multi-part question- I do not know if there's been any recent discussions between the Chapter and the R&N people. As of about a month ago I was told that the R&N was of the opinion that it was the Countys call and that they(R&N) were not interested in acquiring either the track nor any of the equipment.
I will urge the appropriate officers to see if they can at least get the R&N folks to move Mr. Harts equipment to a safe harbor somewhere on thier property before 11/22 so it doesn't get scrapped in place along with the track&turntable.
Let's hope they're successful! Ross Rowland

More thoughts applied to the crisis at hand:

Andy Muller/the R&N needs more steam and passenger equipment like the EBT needs more termites, in my opinion. He isn't operating what he has, and the passenger stock is sitting largely neglected/moribund, albeit in "good" hands.

HOWEVER.....

Many of the Rail Tours cars, I recall, are Reading design (I understand they are mostly CNJ cars built to a common blueprint). IF interchange were possible (as in, ignore the FRA interchange rules because technically an "interchange" isn't happening, wink wink nudge nudge knowwotImean?), then yes, just get the cars out of there and shove them down some gawd-forsaken R&N branch and let them sit for now. Then let the Reading Co. T&H Society claim a car or an operable trainset if they so choose, maybe if that's not an option let Muller take a "hometown" train set and surplus the then-spare Lackawanna MU cars to whoever realistically can use them (a restaurant? a captive tourist operation?). The steamer? Up on the open market, as far as I'm concerned.

All of this, of course, is contingent upon the R&N actually still caring about recreational railroading anymore--a very big "if", as it certainly apears the R&N has matured from a railroading "plaything" to a serious regional railroad. The long silence from 425 and 2102 should speak volumes.

Incidentally, have the ARHS/URHS/whoever "CNJ" F3's departed Jim Thorpe in advance of the crisis? Where to? (Sorry, wasn't paying attention.....)

I seem to recall from earlier posts that the County somehow wound up owning the ground under George Hart's track and ties, which has various owners' cars on it. The county told George that his right to use the county's land under his track would end about 12/31/04. George transferred the track to a non-profit group, possibly in hopes that the County wouldn't be so harsh with them. The idea didn't work, now the R&LHS Chapter has a "white elephant" that they must remove from the County's land before the County bills them for the expense of removal. Worse yet, there are other peoples' historical cars sitting on this track and they must be removed before the track can go.
If the profit-making R&N RR buys or is given the track (but not the land under it), will it get treated any better by the county than a non-profit group?
I also seem to recall that the County wants to use the land for a much more valuable purpose than having a railroad track sit on it.
The Chapter may just be trying to get out of a bad situation.
(One of Dick Jensen's[sp?] steam locos was scrapped by Chicago METRA under somewhat similar circumstances.)

(I am much calmer, though just as outraged, today)

Sandy,

While the F's are headed out this year, both they and Hart's coaches are scheduled for 4 days of operation in December, weeks after the Lackawanna Chapter's scorched earth policy is to be carried out.

I have not heard from any reliable sources exactly what will happen regarding this.

Notably, according to media reports neither the county nor the R&LHS chapter seem to want to be the first to budge.

Egos, cash and whatever other sins that are driving this nightmare need to be overcome and overcome quickly.

It is very important to note that the R&N has *nothing* to do with the immediate pre-1/1/2005 crisis. This is entirely between the L&HS (owner of the track and hardware) and the county (owner of the ground under it).

Which, to circle back to my original outrage, it is *only* the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS that is threatening to scrap anything. Not preserve, by the way. In the Chapter's media campaign it has never been reported that they intend to salvage and preserve anything, including the turntable. It is only about destruction.

Yes, let me repeat that... not the county, not the R&N, but the historical society that is bent on destruction.

I know I am being repetitious, but I feel like this needs to be hammered home: the party threatening the scrappers torch is the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS, not the other parties.

Which is why I say now is the time to stop the R&LHS and get them out of the situation. Then, after that, find peace between the other players which results in all the infrastructure remaining intact. Only the R&LHS has taken the hard line "scrap it if we don't get our way."

NEPA has, by my count, exactly two turntables left in their original pits: Jim Thorpe and Pen Argyl. Pen Argyl's is scheduled to come out - unclear if preservation is actually happening. In any case, it will leave the area. The Reading's Saucon turntable was removed for preservation off-site two years ago. That leaves JT as the last. It is also the only turntable pit in NEPA still on active rail, outside of Steamtown.

Of note, the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS is also part of New Jersey's URHS organization. Perhaps those involved with the URHS can urge a greater sense of custodial responsibility upon the Chapter?

If one itoa gets scrapped in JT, it will be a very big blemish on the good name of railroad preservation.

Rob

http://www.tnonline.com/archives/news/2004/05.27/carbon.html

Jim,

In this article you will see that the county wants the infrastructure left in place.

Rob

http://www.tnonline.com/archives/news/2004/05.27/carbon.html

The above URL explains that the Chapter gave three ultimatumsof which the one they are planning to follow represents what Chapter leader Miller "warned that last option would be "extremely inadvisable and totally destructive" for residents of the county, and in particular, the merchants."

I think the main point that Mr. Davis is missing here is that the Chapter is not threatening to commence scrapping operations on 11/22 but rather they have sent a written notification to all those that presently have equipment stored on thier track that scrapping WILL commence on 11/22 and the owners are being notified that they have until then to find another home for thier equipment.
My read is that you can berate the R&LHS Chapter all you want, but if either the County and/or the R&N don't step up before 11/22 scrapping will begin on that date and by or before 12/31/04 the rail, turntable and any equipment left on it on 11/22 will be on its way to the melting furnace to become someones 2006 Toyota!
In defense of the Chapter, all of thier efforts to engage in meaningful dialouge with the County were met with either silence or a "not interested" answer.
Hopefully something can be worked out at tha last minute to save at least Mr. Harts steam engine if not the track/turtable/coaches etc.
Time will tell!! Ross Rowland

I believe there is one venue that may not have been tried and which merits consideration. The shame is that we do not have more time prior to the election to have the State step in, call a time out and provide reason to try to reach a resolution.

George Hart is well thought of in Philanthropic circles in the Commonwealth and is well thought of within the broader overall preservation community. The Governor is well known for his zeal in attempting to round up every last breathing vote, (and some dead one also) so why not enlist the State Historic and Museum Commission to try to sort this out as an "honest broker" (If such a thing exists in Pennsylvania Politics).

The Chairman of the PAHMC is Mr. Wayne Spilove. He is a terrific advocate. Contact him at the Commission and urge him to step into the fray!

You have nothing to loose.

Wayne Spilove
E-mail Address(es):
ChairmanWS@comcast.net