I have often wondered about railroads that use volunteer labor when they are privately owned and for profit business. Here on RYPN I have read about volunteer efferts at several railroads that this would apply including recently at New Hope. By no means am I knocking anything they are doing. On a personal level I have never given my time and effort to a profit making business. I was wondering how others feel about this issue.

Tom

I have donated labor to technically for-profit enterprises, but I always felt a little uneasy about it.

My chief concern is not the for-profit status per se; I have nothing against this way of organizing a preservation or heritage tourism project if you can make it work, and I admire outfits like D&S, WP&Y, and Strasburg. Instead, I worry about the lack of ultimate control over the assets I'm investing my time in.

Usually these businesses are dominated by a single owner, stamped with his personality, and intertwined with his personal finacial affairs. I'm always aware that should the owner die unexpectedly the heirs might disperse the property I've been working on. I'm also aware that the owner might just lose interest or encounter an external financial reverse and decide to sell or disperse it himself.

Nonprofits are not nirvana, but usually they are at least organized specifically to work on the site or collection they have custody of, are legally dedicated to its perpetuation, and have no incentive to disperse it (I am setting aside here some difficult internal fights over collections rationalization--a related but tangential issue).

So I do think there is more risk in giving one's labor and one's heart to an enterprise over whose assets you have zero legal control and no legal right of access.

But, if one feels strongly enough about the cause and trusts the owner, sure, why not? It's your time to spend as you wish. The skills you learn and the friendships you make you can hopefully take away even if the project itself doesn't end as you might have wished.

Tom,

I see your point but don't forget that many times the distiction of "for profit" is an accounting and legal distiction not, unfortunately, a monetary distiction. The efforts of volunteer help can't go unrecognized, many times they are able to concentrate their efforts on areas of a particular railroad that the railroad itself can't. It costs an incredible amount of money just to keep a train running let alone keeping up with grounds, buildings, or other parts of a railroad that are historically significant but not necessary to the actual operation.

Volunteers don't fit into the scope of every operation but thank God they are out there. The profit in "For Profit Corporation" often times eludes the tourist railroad industry.

This is actually seldom an issue. It's not like I can go and volunteer at Strasburg. The rare exceptions would be something like the Ohio Central's TrainFest or a restoration of C&O 614 if Ross Rowland got a place to run on the main line.

I know that, in my case, the very issues that Erik mentioned are the reasons I have not contributed significantly to the FEBT efforts. If the railroad and property are somehow assurred a long-term future that isn't at the whim and blessing of one individual and his heirs, I'll be up there as often as I can, and I'm sure there are many throughout the region that are of a similar mindset.

I would say that it is an issue that everyone has to decide for themselves. Most of my volunteering has been for various non-profit organizations. But, back in my younger days I did volunteer some on the Southern/NS steam program, simply because "the Boss" (Bill Purdy) said he could use me. More recently, I have helped the Showalters with their equipment, but that is more of a case of helping out old friends. I think that you need to consider what you will get out a situation like this, and decide for yourself. Ultimately, with any volunteer activity, what you are working for is your own satisfaction.

Erik and all,
you are making a good point here. the reason that an organization is granted non-profit status is that the people, through their goverments at some level have recognized that the work being done has long term benifits to the society we live in.

It can be a university, a hospital or in the case here historic preservation. Non profits are usually run by a Board of Trustees who in theory anyway put their heads together to raise money and further the aims of the group.

That is why a simple partnership is not considered, or a profit run corporation. They too have their place, but we in the historic preservation business are trying to think long term, in what we do.

Admittedly there are fiscal mistakes even bankrupt non-profits or sometimes those groups achieve their goal and go out of business, but for the most part we think long term.

Ted Miles

The other side of the coin concerning volunteers working with a for-profit entity is that volunteers are sometimes difficult to manage. Having been on both sides of this, as a volunteer in both non-profit and for-profit entities and as a manager of a for-profit which occasionally received assistance from individual and group volunteers, I'm not sure there is a balance point.

I know of a couple of for-profit operations which stopped using volunteers because they felt they had no control over them. For instance, people who volunteered as coach attendants who did not show up on rainy or hot or cold days were a consistent headache. Another for-profit that operates solely with volunteers has been forced on a few occasions to substitute diesel power on its trains when no steam-qualified personnel were available.

We've discussed the entire issue of the shrinking pool of volunteers on this board previously, and this is a permutation of that discussion. Providing amenities for the use of volunteers, ranging from showers and lockers to meals has been employed with some success, and one tourist railway I know of even offered token payments to help volunteers pay for gas. How successful these efforts are is still under discussion.

I am a fan of the "token payment" plan, or, better yet, minimum wage with the commensurate liability coverage, etc that comes with employees. Nobody is going to make a living working for minimum wage a few days a month, but it covers the costs of showing up to work for the workers and provides the enterpreneur with a basis for managing his work force. Both sides win. A side benefit is the potential disqualification of operations so marginal that they can't even cover minimum wage and therefore stand a better than likely chance of failure anyhow. Far better to not waste the resources on a doomed startup.

dave

OPINION ALERT: The following is my opinion, observations, conclusions, etc., and mine alone. None of what follows represents anything other than that. I'm not speaking for anyone else in any way.


Eric Lebetter's post below, and Alan Maples' post in the "How to Destroy an Operation" thread are both very instructive and hit the nail right on the head. And, sad to say, the M&H's recent woes provide a case study on both points.

Eric said When thinking about getting involved in a privately-owned operation as a volunteer, you will do well to remember that. When I got in the M&H, I knew the score, so I will have no regrets, regardless of how things eventually play out.

As for Alan's post, based on my experience with the M&H, I would say that there needs to be clearly demarcated boundaries in place between the railroad and volunteers, particularly in the case where the volunteers have organized into some sort of group. That was not the case at the M&H, at least during my tenure there.

Some there will disagree with that last statement and will take exception to the statement that follows. In my opinion, back when I started at the M&H, I think the relationship between the volunteers and the railroad was mutually and amicably exploitative to some degree. The owner got his free labor, and the volunteers got to play with the trains. For the most part, this worked ok and could even be synergistic at times, because I think there was a sense of balance, mutually shared goals, and I don't think either party demanded too much of the other.

However, it didn't take a lot to upset the balance. A change or two in circumstances and/or players was plenty, especially if one of the new cast members was insensitive to the balance. That "false sense of equity" Alan talked about (what an excellent way to put it) bubbled to the surface, on both sides really, in one form or another. Both sides felt taken advantage of. There were frequently hard feelings on both sides.

The railroad and the volunteers were really intertwined; at least insofar as the passenger/tourist operation was concerned. I think if you asked ten members what the volunteer organization was primarily supposed to do, you would have gotten twelve different answers. The railroad owner and employees were involved in the volunteer organization to differing degrees. The propriety of the for-profit railroad having a non-profit volunteer/booster club was a thorny issue from time to time. If, when, and to what extent railroad business should be discussed at the volunteer organization meetings was another issue. The whole thing was a real mess.

In this mess, because the boundaries and division were not unambiguously established, both sides occasionally tested how far they could push. In fairness, both sides could be pretty nice and also pretty crappy to the other, both officially and as individuals. After all of this time has gone by (about 6 or seven years for me), it's hard to say who actually drew first blood, and it's really not important now. As an interesting aside, my observation was that the people involved either were acutely aware of the mess (many of them eventually drifted to the periphery of the organization or outright quit) or they accepted the whole package as the normal state of affairs and were oblivious to how sticky things really could get at times, and at worst would even contribute to the mess.

This is not cast aspersions on either side. Many great people went through the volunteer organization over the years, and they were hard-working, dedicated, selflessly-motivated individuals who I have become friends with. And I will always be grateful to the owner for allowing me to be an honest-to-goodness railroader without having to quit my day job, an opportunity that is rare indeed. Often times stuck in the middle were the railroad employees, some of which have become my best friends now. They were the ones who made the volunteer opportunities happen, they volunteered themselves, and made good things happen for the railroad in the process.

And let me be clear about this point: the volunteers or the volunteer organization didn't cause the M&H's problems now. What I am saying is that the lack of boundaries and division greased the skids, or exacerbated the situation, in my opinion. This relationship between the volunteers and the M&H is just one of many things that have converged to create whatever situation we have at present. I think with the boundaries in place, the railroad and the volunteers would have been better been able to weather the stormier times because there would have been rules of engagement to fall back on. Maybe they could have worked together in these tougher recent times, as they had in the past.

The last chapter of the M&H has yet to be written. No matter what you may hear here, I don't think anyone really knows for sure what will happen next, including the owner. I am expecting the worst, and hoping for the best. Stay tuned, and I apologize for all of the wind. But I think there is something to be learned from this.

Steve Zarick
Fireman, Conductor, Brakeman, and Steam Swunkey at large, I guess.

Looking at the issue strickly from my perspective (that of a young man who wants to learn more about steam locomotives and railroading in general), volunteering for a for-profit firm has definite advantages over many non-profits.

Thie past summer, I had some time off from school, so I decided to go help the Ohio Central crew with LS&I 33 and whatever else they decided to make me do. This turned out to be the most educational steam expericence of my life. All my previous volunteer experience had come working on the VC2 at the Orange Empire Railway Museum, and while this is a nice little operation, its non-profit status causes some problems. Because of its nature as an all volunteer operation, and because the locomotive in question has been operational in some form since the late 70's, there has never been an opportunity for me to see a major rebuild in progress. Sure I have observed tube rolling, some hot riviting, replacement of the back corners in the firebox, and other minor things, the drive gear, spring rigging and brake rigging were a complete mystery to me.

Enter my opportunity at the Ohio Central. Being a for-profit, run by a well funded individual, they have the personnel, incentive and funding to dive headlong into major rebuild projects. While the time I was there was not typical of the speed of their operation, I still managed, in one month, to see side sheet, throat sheet and knuckle replacement, superheater fabrication, tube rolling, driving box rebuild and installation, spring and brake rigging installation and a multitude of other things too numerous to mention. I also finally got to see some of the techniques for dealing with excursions and road failures.

Now, I am not saying all this can't be experienced by working with the right non-profit, say the NKP 765 crew in Fort Wayne or the Nevada Northern in Ely, or any of the many other non-profits that have undertaken and completed major rebuilds but for me, my time with the OC taught me a lot about steam, and reinvigorated my interest in railroading in general because it was one place where I could learn a whole lot in a short period of time from knowledgeable people.

lthough I have never delurked to post here before, I have particularly strong feelings about this issue, specifically with respect to the work being done by FEBT in Rockhill Furnace, PA. I will focus my comments on the EBT, but I think most of them would apply to other sites as well.

For me, the goal of preservation is to keep a physical artifact intact because it has some notable significance to history. It is kept intact so that it is available for other people, and future generations. The EBT's significance is huge, and I feel (as most) that it must be preserved.

The EBT in particular is a large property, with several locomotives, many miles of track, many structures, and hundreds of cars. In common carrier days, it payrolled a surprisingly large workforce to keep it up and running. Current day service does not offer income to payroll such a workforce, and the small workforce there now must concentrate on operational essentials.

If the remainder of the EBT's infrastructure is to survive (in the current conditions), then it must be done by volunteers, and done now. Structures continue to collapse and fade away. Some recent losses: the Robertsdale Company Store, Rocky Ridge station, the coaling station shed. Go back a few more years and the list starts growing fast. Or wait a few more and the list may also grow. Practically every structure needs help, but only a few will receive any attention, and the rest left to rot for another year... and another year... because there are not enough volunteers to do the work. What will be left when some grand restoration deal is finally struck? A roundhouse, some locos, and some steel flats? Waiting for a change in ownership does not help these artifacts survive. Nature is not waiting for a change, she's giving her all to drive the railroad into the ground year in and year out.

So there's the altruism. But there are some selfish reasons to volunteer at privately owned sites too.

I've met a lot of friends (aside from being 'Friends') while volunteering, and I very much enjoy seeing them, chatting about the lastest research or finds, and catching up on the (modern day) lore. It's nice to get away from the big city and spend a quiet weekend in the mountains with the rabbits, deer, and birds. And heck, a steam train passes by on a regular schedule!
I enjoy seeing the place get better with each visit instead of worse. In the course of my volunteer work I've been able to see things around the shops that regular visitors don't. And nothing like making a repair gets you closer to seeing how something was built, broken, repaired, and modified by the original craftsmen. There are new skills to be learned at every turn. Some of those skills are going to come in handy when work is needed on other items which may be owned or leased by the non-profit FEBT, like some wooden narrow gauge passenger cars, or buildings in Robertsdale.

And who's to say we won't need the help of the railroad in future endeavors? The EBT has allowed FEBT to store two passenger cars on EBT property, under cover, for the past 2 years. The EBT has leased its paint shop to the FEBT for use in our various restoration efforts. These are the kind of benefits that are facilitated by a working relationship with a for-profit, privately owned company.

Certainly there are many places that need volunteer help. I volunteered for work at other sites, and was considering two others just before the recent FEBT Rockhill work began. Work where you want and where you think your efforts are utilized to the maximum effect in preserving what you think is worthwhile. But don't dismiss private ownership as a trump
to all the benefits. The owners of the EBT have kept it operating in tourist service in lean conditions for 44 years. Not everything has gone as everyone would prefer, but it says something about a commitment to the railroad.

On the issue of which form of ownership and operating entity is best for any arbitrary site, I am not qualified to comment, except to note that given recent events as relayed here on RyPN, not-for-profit control does not seem to be a guarantee of preservation, much less preservation in a manner that everyone approves.

This message conveys my personal opinions, and should in no way be construed as official positions of any other individual or organization.

For more information on FEBT's restoration activities in Rockhill and elsewhere, please visit http://www.febt.org

Ditto to what California said. I could pretty much throw out the window what I had known before that experiece at OC on the #33. Not to mention the fact that, coming from working in the non-profit world, how nice it was to work a job that involved using my hands as much as my brains.

Know that sounds stupid, but experiencing the physical exhaustion after a LONG day/night of setting superheater tubes and cutting and fitting boiler lagging to a day of mental exhaustion of cataloging, filing, and dealing with a public that doesn't always appreciate what it takes to preserve objects, answer a wide variety of questions, and run between multiple sites to fix exhibits, was, well, a nice change of pace. Enough of one that it made me re-think a few things about what preservation means --- and where one's place can be in all of it.

If it weren't for those who I worked and volunteered for at OC, wouldn't have had that opportunity -- and also wouldn't have laughed my rear-end off with the likes of Jeff and many others.....

T.J. Gaffney

Working for free on the O.C. (for profit) Benifts
1. Jerry thanks you every day for helping.
2. Getting pulled out from under the 33 and being told to get in the tool car and riding 50 mph behind the 6325.(how many of you would PAY for that?) Then having people taking your picture while your greasing it live.
3. Having run of the shop.(myself and several of my crew run and or work in a locomitve shop) The other guy that goes is stem generator/certified welder.
They just give us a list and like it when we get more done than they thought.
4. Hearing a poster on this board do perfect Beavus and Butthead cracks!
5 Free hats, pins, and tee shirts as well as Christmas party
6. HAVING FUN WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7. they feed you well.
8. meeting people,John rimmasch, John Corns, gary bensen Jason johnson, Greg Shultz, Andy Novack, T.J. Gaffney, Etc and on and on.
9. Learning lots about steam!
Porblems? none yet.
Yes some of these people are no longer there but the problems were invisable to me. I saw where they could have come from but I wasn't involved.
Working as a board member for a non profit
1. no Tuesday nights or Sunday afternoons for the past 15 years. (working fund raising)
2. Egotistical Tryant who some how got control of the operations
3.Haveing an eletrical engineer tell me how to maintain equipment. I know and work with the F.R.A. locomtive guy and get along with him great, this guy argues with both me and the F.R.A. guy. I get a waiver and this guy says you can't do that!
4. coming home from a baord meeting some mad you have to go hide from you're family.
5.Seeing your long time freinds quit in frustration after forming the orginaztion in 1978.(I was there at 14 years old)
6. Dumb comments about historicaly important equipment being refered to as junk, It's not F.R.A. approved!
7. Trying to give equipment to someone who would take care of it,have people complain about us having it, Then haveing the winners want money when you find a way to get rid of it in proper manner. the same people that don't work fund raising.
8. Having people save items with there own money(good useable items) and get critized for it.
9.Having to do all work out doors because the powers that be can't see the need for a building. Plus what we've spent on legal could have built a shop!
Benifits
1.Some of us manage to make it fun.
2.We own free and clear our own rail line.
3. Even though that presnts it's own fights it ours! no one's going to shut it down and take it away.
4. I've learned about the law ,politics and how things get done better than you ever could in collage.
5. The perks that come with meeting allot of people in differnt walks of life.
6. making a differance in peoples life.
7. Hopefull perserving an important part of our history.
Sorry about being long winded and spelling errors!