Lots of recent discussion about location and conditions of equipment, load boxes, throttle valves and whether tubes are rolled and flared or welded in straight...but I want to come around to the people side of preservation again.

Last month, over on another discussion board the question came up "Is there a (web)site that shows the various hand signals used by the railroads prior to the increased use of radio communication?" And while some of the responses were interesting, some humorous, no one answered the question.

Do any of you know of such a website?

Do any of you know of a comprehensive compilation (in any media source--RR training film, book, company manual, AAR publication, magazine back issue, etc.) of the hand signals used?

Has ARM, TRAIN, or any of the various historical societies collected/presented such information?

If not, does anyone else share an interest in gathering/documenting this vanishing method of communication? Maybe I'm wrong and it is not vanishing...

If not, let's move on to the next thread...

If so, may I share some random thoughts on such a project and get your response...

Past attempts that I have seen failed to some degree because they relied on a still photo or drawing to represent something that was ‘motion dependent'. In this day/age of technology of video and computers, can't this information be gathered/presented in a more accurate way?

Many of us are involved with museums and tourist operations. We ‘ve all had that ‘old hat' come for a ride/visit and ‘bend your ear' to reminisce about how they remember when....

How about grabbing a video camera and asking them to go through the hand signals they remember? Make it a bit like an oral history--get their name, position, railroad (important because of regional variations in signals), years worked (i.e. 1939-1979) and any peculiarities/specifics that they remember about the signal. If no camera is available, simple stick figure drawings to represent the signal. Be sure to thank them for their time and maybe slip them a pass, coupon for the snack bar, a museum pin or whatever...

Some of you video producers...
Do you have examples of the hand signals in your vintage footage that could be edited together for such a project?

With some of your current/future projects, could you have your crew devote some "film" to the hand signals still being used on the Class I's and short lines.

As your crews visit the operations of the museums and tourist lines, have them demonstrate their methods of signaling.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input.

‘doc' lewis

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

Hi Doc;

Good ideas all of them. I never could be dependent on radios in the cab of a moving steam locomotive, too much real noise I needed to listen to going on.

I remember my confusion when I moved west and had to learn a new set of signals - my eastern signals were called "night signals" out west, only used with lanterns. I learned from old timers firsthand a melange of FEC / SR signals which included tickling your ribs and scratching your armpit among others. This "come to me / go away from me" stuff was way too simple........once you were let in on it.

All the rule books I have seen for tourist and museum operations have the line drawings with arrows on them which inevitaly have to be demonstrated to new crews before they are understood. I have seen a film from UP made years ago about an old time brakeman taching signals and safety stuff, there must be more out there.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

I think we'd have to distinguish between ALL hand signals, and the few "legal" ones spelled out in the rule books.

Most of the old ETTs or rulebooks I've ever seen stipulated the same five or six that our tourist railroads use, and that you can find the line drawings with arrows for: proceed, back up, apply air brakes, release air brakes, stop, and sometimes steady up.

The richness came in all the other signals that came under the category of "any signal agreed to by the crew beforehand." That falls into the category of craft tradition and industrial folklore as more than it does "official" practice-- and rich tradition is is. Even on two museum lines in Maryland, I've encountered differences--hand signals that were universally understood on one were anathema to the other.

eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

> I think we'd have to distinguish between ALL
> hand signals, and the few "legal"
> ones spelled out in the rule books.

> Most of the old ETTs or rulebooks I've ever
> seen stipulated the same five or six that
> our tourist railroads use, and that you can
> find the line drawings with arrows for:
> proceed, back up, apply air brakes, release
> air brakes, stop, and sometimes steady up.

> The richness came in all the other signals
> that came under the category of "any
> signal agreed to by the crew
> beforehand." That falls into the
> category of craft tradition and industrial
> folklore as more than it does
> "official" practice-- and rich
> tradition is is. Even on two museum lines in
> Maryland, I've encountered differences--hand
> signals that were universally understood on
> one were anathema to the other.

Hand signals are still in use and are often used in areas where there is radio congestion. NORAC Rule 13 governs the hand signals authorised for use on the member roads.



Electric City Trolley Museum Associ

Check with UP or TRAIN, I think that old UP training film was put on video and it is the BEST training film EVER for switching, hand signals, safety, etc. It features an actor, falling off cars etc. very good with a little humour.

I repeat BEST EVER.

Hand signals varied a lot, even between yards in SAME terminal! But, lots of common ones too.
Yes, you could really "talk" with hand signals, and on a steam engine you could see your mate better than hear him.



http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains
oldtimetrains@rrmail.com

> Hand signals are still in use and are often
> used in areas where there is radio
> congestion. NORAC Rule 13 governs the hand
> signals authorised for use on the member
> roads.

I've always preferred hand or lantern signals to radios. I use them every day to communicate for work (non-rail related) and I can't stand them.

A friend who has a rail career once put it best. "Radios and street trackage make people stupid." I've been the victim of volunteers using the radio for oratory rather than communication. Finally, in most cases at museums, we operate equipment from an era before radios. Hand or lantern signals are part of the recreation.

Roger

pullman@privatecarservice.net

Look around for a video called "Getting Off On The Right Foot".
This is a great "how to video" and shows real men on real railroads(looks like early to mid seventies) showing railroad safety pertaining to hand signals,hand brakes, stepping on and off locos and cars plus other hazards and procedures.
Plus the film is humorous because the main actor is always doing things the wrong way, which helps to see what the point of the film is...SAFETY.
If you can't find a copy, e-mail me and i'll try to set you up with a copy I know of.

Brian



btamper@hotmail.com

Also rent Buster Keaton in "The General" and "Our Hospitality" for more railroad don'ts.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Years ago (probably 25 years ago) I was talking with a long-time railfan who was a Santa Fe engineer here in Southern California and nearing retirement. We talked about the difference of the flag and lantern signals and the western daytime "come to me"/"go away from me" signals.

He said that from his observations the change from the daytime flag signals to the "come to me" daytime hand signals occurred at the Mississippi River.

By the way, you've got to know the local vernacular hand signals. From people I've talked to, it seems almost universal that the daytime signal in the West for stretch the train to check the pin is to hold the hands linked together (like couplers) at the chest. However, I once heard someone say that that was the signal on the Soo Line for "I'm going between the cars to hook up the air hoses." Ouch, that could be deadly.

Brian Norden

bnorden@gateway.net

If that UP training film is the one which has the scene of the guy getting off a car and running smack into a tall switchstand, that isn't an actor but the UP Terminal Superintendent of LA at the time the movie was made. Yes, it's one of the best; I haven't seen it since 1974.

East Coast and West Coast hand signs are not the same. As near as we've been able to tell, the dividing line is somewhere east of a line drawn between Chicago and New Orleans.

Radios can be dangerous as it is not difficult to for messages to be misunderstood. I've seen and heard of numerous situations where one crewmember misheard a message transmitted over the radio or mistakenly thought the message was intended for them. With hand signals, there are no gray areas, only black and white so long as the signals are understood by all involved in the operation.

Getting on to particular hand signals, I've done switching using nothing but hand signals to communicate many times. Hand signals are mostly used to direct coupling operations but there have been times when we used hand signals to guide shove movements over longer distances. One engineer and I used shoulder taps and pointing to the waist to indicate distances in whole and half car lengths. If we were coupling and the pin didn't fall, two closed fists coming together a couple of times or a clapping motion of hands tells the crewman operating the locomotive to "hit it again."

envlink@voyageronline.net