I agree to an extent, Tom. But that heavy industry didn't vanish from the globe, it went somewhere else. Like a book of momentos in a flooded home... it doesn't stop exisiting, it just winds up downstream.

That industry went other places. It is not the purpose of this board to argue that side of it, but it is pertinent to discuss how we memorialize the loss...
and, my hope, the rebirth.

Rob

Ah yes, another example of the Tim Botti "born too late" curse.

I was always fascinated by the towering monuments of our industrial past, and thankfully there are still a few left here in Pittsburgh (though almost miniscule in comparison to what this town once was). While I'm building my career and livelihood on technology, I keep in mind that the folks who were in my (hopeful) line of work 50 or 100 years ago were creating these industrial cathedrals of smoke and sparks. Unfortunately most of these places are not finding a place in today's society.

Case in point,

When my ancestors came from Italy, they settled in Wildmerding, PA and all the men went to work for the Westinghouse Air Brake Co.

Someone poking around Wilmerding (or any of the other hundreds of company-built towns around the country) today would not realize the part that industry once played in the life of the town. Whats left of Westinghouse's once sprawling complex is mostly vacant. One would never see how much the company once dominated the Turtle Creek Valley which it called home.

The steel mills here are the same way. The ones that have found a way to survive continue to operate, but everything else is gone. Someone that moves to Pittsburgh tomorrow would be hard pressed to find evidence of the steel industry's once tight grasp on this city.

I sometimes think its unfortunate that in my lifetime America has (in my own view anyway) tended to hide it's industrial heritage more than embrace it. Gone are the days when the whole town would come out to see the new locomotive that the Pennsylvania Railroad's crack team of engineers built. For that matter, gone are the days of big industry even trying to connect with the general public, and vice versa. In classes I'm in we talk about what came before us, and whats coming in the future. But right now engineers are just as concerned with ensuring someone will hire us when we graduate. It's cheaper to have someone in India do my job than have me do it.

I've never been to Bethlehem, but I'd imagine its the same case. We MUST find a balance between progress and embracing the past. To simply sweep the country's industrial heritage under the carpet, to knock down every blast furnace and rip up every railyard, to "redevelop" to the point that we forget what came before is careless. It's a disservice to my generation and the ones that come after us, as we'll never see how America's industry once thrived. More importantly, it forgets the memory of those workers who formed the backbone of the American economy.

All apologies if this is a bit sporadic and random, I think final exams might have drawn most of the logical thought process out of me. Sorry for the long post!

The steel mills all went to China, where some are still using steam locos on their in plant railways.

Since this is the Christmas season, Rob, let me start with:

Humbug.

(now, where's that "I'm joking" emoticon?)


Rail bank every weedgrown, unused line? Poppycock. The railroads are carrying far more freight now than they did in the 1970s, on fewer trunks. We don't need the St. J and LC, or Tennessee Pass. We didn't need four railroads sharing four tracks on both sides of the river between Allentown and Nesquehoning Jct. An additional siding or main track on another line provides the same capacity for far less.

Mothball steel plants? The ones we have can't compete, or Nucor or Tuscaloosa Steel mini-mills would never have done so well. For 30 years people have been saying that "one day" we'll need to make our own steel again. Thank goodness the people of Birmingham, AL, didn't listen to those folks.

There were no doubt laments from horse lovers when the Iron Horse and later the Horseless Carriage came along. "Create a national breeding program for the day we need huge numbers of nags again! Subsidize the blacksmith shops to keep them in business - we're going to need horseshoes again one day! Those dang furriners will try to cut us off one day!"

In the 1930s, the cry was no doubt: "don't let those farms move to California! Keep them in the South!"

Or in the 1950s: "Create a strategic reserve of steam locomotives! Keep those coaling towers and water plugs serviceable! Don't furlough the backshop employees! We'll need them when we run out of oil in 1960!"

The numbers belie your notion that jobs are wanting - with one caveat. The college-educated are doing better, the high-school-educated are doing worse. But 50 years ago, the only thing that was different was where the split came (eighth grade, not 12th/college). There has always been upward mobility with education.

People work in casinos, or convenience stores, for one reason: that's the best job they can get where they live. The answer is not to plan for the past, but to make sure the good people of Bethlehem (and dozens of other cities) get job re-training, and maybe even relocation assistance. That way they won't be stuck where there are no jobs, with no marketable skills.

JAC

Hi all,

Thanks for the interesting feedback and discussion... certainly got me thinking about other viewpoints.

Rob

Rob;

There is a disconnect between yours and Erik's posting (both of which views I have heard over and over.)

You talk about box stores with "$7.00 and hour" jobs replacing the great union jobs in the steel mills. On the other hand, Erik talks about the rural farms being replaced with huge new homes. How can the two be in the same country?

I think some of it has to do with people overextending themselves on credit trying to keep up with Jones. But the fact of the matter is that most people enjoy economic prosperity that they forefathers could only dream of.

While the poor in the past worked in sweatshops and fields, they now hold down jobs in Wal-Mart. And while some may never rise above those jobs, others who work there are either in school or bidding time until a better paying job comes along.

I think the situation with our nation's health care is not perfect; and manfesting itself in the infant moratility rates you mentioned. But even there, the number of births to unmarried teenagers and similiar satistics continue to decline.

I think we live in the greatest time ever because we can enjoy the sights and sound of steam at work; yet we can all return to our air conditioned cars and homes and watch it all again on our computers and VCRs afterwards. It has already been mentioned that few locomotive engineers today would trade in their air conditioned diesel locomotives for a steam locomotive. I am also sure that not everyone enjoyed working in a steel mill, and would have preferred a desk job if they could get it. As one who works in a rubber factory, I can tell you they make money they can't make elsewhere; but it is not easy work, and not everyone can do it. And safety and working conditions for them are MUCH better than it was even ten or twenty years ago; much less after the plant was built during WWII.

I don't like casinos either; but if one wants to paint a steam engine up and hang from the lobby, that is better than seeing it scrapped. If this casino does contribute to preservation of the location (of which I share your doubts as well) then great; it will probably ONLY do so if a portion of the revenues from it are directly diverted to preserving the remainder of the mill.

I would think the Casino itself would also have a vested interest in seeing that rest of the mill is kept in good condition; who wants to visit a Casino in what appears to be the "bad part of town". And as others have said; a steel mill, like a steamship, has lots of metal to keep up; ticket revenue alone will not cut it. And the government doesn't have money to give away either.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

But I don’t think it should be boiled down to a matter of love and respect for stuff.

I daresay I love these “big, loud machinesâ€

They *WANT* to built a Foxwoods-clone on Long Island's East End in Southampton. As it is, I don't think enough New Yorkers appreciate the history here and take everything for granted. The beaches are packed; but the museums need to get more patronage; such as the Montauk Lighthouse; much more crowded than it once was.

A casino leeches off a community and destroys the fabric of it. North Stonington, Connecticut out where Foxwoods is saw an amazing increase in crime, and the addition of an XXX adult shop in their town.

The Railroad Museum of Long Island now offers miniature train rides, and tours of the Riverhead Yard and its many historic displays; including 3 steam locomotives; one of which is the only narrow-gauge steam locomotive on Long Island. I've never seen it crowded, except the Railfest weekends. Hopefully if things go as-planned with the #39 and cooperation with all parties, perhaps in 5 years, people will flock to the East End for rides behind the first steam locomotive to operate on Long Island since the mid-60s, when Black River & Western #60 ran from Jamaica to Montauk. We need to preserve history, rather than destroying it and our towns with a disgusting gambling casino with dishonesty and crime.

Here's a workday at the RMLI in preparation for the Railfest. Note the restored crossing shanty, turntable awaiting installation for the #39, and Defiance Coal #1 in the shed.

So we are agreed that wonderful things are going on in Long Island, but the general public thinks casinos are more worthy of their support and patronage. Obviously, we shouldn't use our personal preferences as a realistic yardstick when it comes to obtaining the required patronage.

What can casinos offer that we can't in terms of capturing the interest of people with money in their pockets who have no objection to losing it? What can any other entertainment venue offer to attract the interest and support and dollars that we can't?

What makes a piece of ground adjacent to a dead steel mill that used to hold ore less interesting than that same piece of ground with a casino on it? OK, that one is easy to understand..........action is more interesting than nothing.

Our potential audience isn't going to change just because we want them to become enlightened and appreciative of our passion. We can change their POV over time, but given that our schools make history boring and our society is ashamed of its industrial heritage and wants to sweep it under the rug, that is going to be a very steep grade to climb. Besides, societal change generally filters up.

We need to be working out ways in which we can speak to the same people that patronize other entertainment venues in their terms if we are to be as worthy of their support as those they patronize. Tearing down what they prefer will only make them angry - we need instead to displace that preference.

dave

While it might well be a deal with the devil-seems to me if allowing a casino to be built on one small part of the sprawling BS site will materially help finance the preservation/restoration of the rest of the site, I say "let's brake ground now!!".
The total site is huge and a casino could certainly be so placed as to be unobtrusive and not at all detract from the powerfull history telling role of the remainder.
Demographically Bethlehem is located close enough to enough folks that the casino should do very well and thus benefit the historic side of the house.
Ross Rowland

The concept of visitors picking “up on an entirely new infrastructure of thoughtâ€

and the Bethlehem developer is slouch as far as preservation goes. Newmark restored/rennovated/preserved the Flatiron Building in NYC. A very competent group.
Time to roll the dice.