Kurt, you'll see a thread regarding the rumor of a sunken ex-PRR switcher near Birdsboro. DO you think there is substance to the report? Do records support or deny the rumor to any degree?

Richard,

I will go take a look later this spring. I am a professional in the diving industry based out of Columbus, Ohio and I volunteer at the OHCR. As there is lot for me to do seeing trains across Pa and some friends that live out there just across the border in Jersey, it gives me good incentive to take a drive and do some exploring. There is also another fellow I have spoken to through a thread here who wants me to come up and check out a sunken loco in Minnesota. I will be adding both of these trips to my to do list for this spring and summer's diving. If you wish to contact me further regarding this you can contact me at teqdiver@yahoo.com. Have a bit of patience with me as diving conditions are not optimal this time of year, Brrrrrrrr.....

J. Ryan Parkevich

I'll get a note off to you tomorrow. Thanks for your donation of services! I'm now wondering if this might be an A3, 0-4-0 that people have rumored about for years. A B6sb is a big machine, whereas an A3 could trundle a few loaded cars about a quarry. The key will be a builders plate and Belpaire firebox, then the other PRR design trademarks. You might want to review a copy of Pennsy Power (I) before taking the dive. Heck, I might drive down to meet you if you want to do that. The key will be photos; lots of them.

We'll talk.

You chaps seem to have left off a very important possibility in the potential diver list:

Jim Boyd, the former editor of Railfan & Railroad and still a noted hard-hat diving enthusiast.

I have already chatted with Jim about this possibility. He's a little too busy to bother right at the moment, but he did say he'd never heard the rumors of this loco/quarry.

In other news, the long and occasionally nasty thread on this topic got yanked off the Chaski Railfan forum, but I have located another willing dive volunteer who will be in the area in the spring or summer. Meanwhile, I have indeed confirmed 1) the existence of said quarry and 2) the former presence of a rail spur leading from the now-gone PRR mainline to the quarry. Both are located about two miles to the southeast of Birdsboro, Pa., in an area that appears to now be part of the northernmost extremeities of French Creek State Park, north of the Hopewell Furnace National Historic Site. If this quarry property is indeed state property (as alleged by the rumormonger), then it might be possible to arrange a dive under the auspices of "underwater archaeology". The topographic maps I have appear to show the quarry being fed by a stream.

Be advised at this point that we still have nothing firm to work with other than the secondhand reports of a source of somewhat dubious and questionable reliability. No photos, no video, etc.

I'm a certified SCUBA diver. I'll be happy to dive with somebody over the summer. I'll even try to talk Jim into coming. I'm sure him and other members of the Northeast Diving Equipment Group would be interested.

J.T.

Not to put down the need for a diver by any means but have you guys considered lowering a video camera enclosed in a diving (waterproof) housing down into the quarry? Of course, it depends on how well you can control the camera and the clarity of the water but such things are done frequently. Since its only about 30 feet deep, there shouldn't be any pressure problems. Some of the divers are probably aware of video cameras that are used underwater.

Just an idea to consider.

-Jim Herron

Richard, two thoughts:

why would the locomotive be at the bottom of the quarry? I don't see any indication on maps or photos that track ever extended into the quarry (as compared to near the edge). It looks too small for that sort of arrangement (this isn't a huge western copper mine). So how, short of getting up speed and running over the edge, did it get there?

And, after 45+ years under water, would the lettering still be visible on the tender?

This one simply doesn't pass the smell test.

JAC

I tend to agree with John Craft on this one; I doubt there were tracks (especially standard gauge) down IN the quarry pit itself. If there is a locomotive at the bottom it must have dropped from the sky!

If this is the former J.T. Dyer Company quarry near Birdsboro, it WAS home to a noteworthy former PRR steam locomotive, 1888-vintage class H3 2-8-0 1187, now on display at the RR Museum of Pa (the chooch you can walk under). The 1187 came to the quarry in the mid teens and operated as an 0-8-0 (the pilot truck was removed and the pilot shortened) until the Pennsy acquired it back for a display at the New York Worlds Fair (and inclusion in the PRR's historic steam locomotive collection).

The Pennsy traded a class B8 0-6-0 to the Dyer quarry to get the 1187 back. If there is a steam locomotive there, one would think it would be this one. Really doubtful!! The only other possibility I can think of would be if the quarry had a limited narrow gauge operation down in the pit and left something like a little 30 or 36 inch gauge 0-4-0 saddletanker down there. Again really doubtful! I don't think this quarry was large enough for that, but I quess who knows. This rumor had to start with something down there!

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Yes, it does appear to be on State Park property:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/parks/maps/frenchcreek_mini.pdf

Though not show on the map, comparing this map to topo and air photos, it would be in the light shaded restricted weapons square near the north end along side route 345. Probably showing the quarry on the park map would make it too much of an attractive nuisance.

Guys,

I'm not sure why this topic creates negative passion. The way I look at it, I have been meaning to take a drive across Pa from Ohio here and see some cool steam. I have friends in the area of this quarry. I am trained in technical diving and have been involved in actual search and recovery operations. So why not just go and take some time and look? I am going to make sure the homework is done first. I don't want to waste my time either, but it will be fun looking. If nothing else, I will get to dive someplace new. If the engines are there, GREAT! If not, who cares? Maybe I can help put the rumormill to bed. I don't consider myself easily fooled by giant pink elephants, but I do think there is potential. Anybody ever been to Mel Fisher's museum in Key West? People thought he was full of it too until he hit the motherload... I know I only lurk here and don't really post, but let's get happy! Have a great new year everybody.

Ryan Parkevich

John,

I have to openly wonder if the person who started the rumor may have had their location confused with the abandoned quarry not far from Tuckerton Road in the Reading Area. The western rim of that quarry is bordered by the NS Reading Line, and part of it had collaped many years ago while under CR ownership ... reportedly taking the track and some freight cars with it. Nobody seems to know if the cars were recovered, or if they remain. In the winter, when the foliage is less dense, one can still see the old ROW dropping off into the collapsed section of the rim. The track was routed around the collapse, to its present day alignment.

Just a thought, but I could easily see someone confusing two quarries in the Reading area, when one is known to have swallowed up some rail equipment at one time.

Still, it can't hurt to look and come up with a definitive answer ... as long as it can be done safely.

So it appears that we have a quarry location, a moribund railroad siding, and reason enough to put a locomotive in the old ditch. Look fella's, I am not expecting to find a complete T1 or J1 in the hole, but a small switcher is possible. Cold, fresh water does not work on sheet metal as salt water does. At least some research has been done and there are divers equal to searching the pool out. If any locomotive is at the bottom of that pit it needs to be documented, photographed and researched. A locomotive find of this nature breathes some hope into the hobby; not a commodity in abundance these days. The positive nature of this discussion is heartening. Whether the results are positive or negative, we'll have somethingnew in the way of knowledge. One last thing...BRING CAMERAS!

I'd rather not speculate guys. Thanks for keeping me in mind, though.

K.R. Bell

Hello all,
I`m the person that started the story in the first place over on Railroad.net.
First of all I got the information from a older gentelman that I know , he used to work for the Pennsylvania Railroad out of Reading, Pa. He was a dispacher for train movements on the Schuylkill Div. His name is Art Acker of Reading, Pa. Now a lot of people tell me I shouldn`t beleave Mr. Acker for he being old, but I do beleave him. Also Mr. Acker was responible for the Reading company Iron horse Rambles of the late 50`s to 60`s . He and three other men. Ray Hamilton, George Gerhart and Ed Franks.

I had another friend that was a Conrail M&W formen out of Reading yard, now past on. But in 2000 He and two other men got permishion to explore the quarry, the two men were divers for Birdsboro Fire Company. Now my friend told me they did see a Steam locomotive under the water. going back a year I to saw a top of steam locomotive sticking out of the water , we had a long drought and the quarry was low in water , to the point I could see the locomotive.

Now the ROW goes into the quarry from the south side . I chated with a man that worked for dyer quarry and he rememebered the steam locomotive very well, He told me that the quarry closed down in the 60`s and that they just left the old equipment in the hole and wrote it off. He told me that the equipment was three steamers one PRR, and two docksides, one steam crane / shovel, and two old mack trucks.

I don`t know his name . He lives along the ROW leading up to the quarry.

I was also talking to a woman that knows of the steamer because her son had a cab ride that was in 1954 . She lives in a mobile home next to the ROW, near the rock cut of the rail bed.

Now there was when I was there old rusty rails piled up near the quarry .

So beleave what you want, I just thought maybe by chance I could try to save a PRR locomotive.

Leonard.

s

Hello Mitchell,
The quarry is located in Monocacy, Pa. off Rt. 724 and Red Conner Road, Shed Road.
The rail spur followed Red Conner Road most of the way, then took a sharp right to go into the quarry, you can still see the road bed along Red Conner Rd. infact theres a person using the one rail bridge as his driveway into his house.

The Pennsylvaina Schuylkill Valley branch was charter in June of 1882 , it would travel between Philadelphia 52secon street off the main line to Pottsville in Schuylkill County . The line was 108 miles long and crossed the Schuylkill River 13 times. I do historical talks on the line and the Schuylkill Navigation System " canal " that was charter on July 24, 1815 which makes it the oldest canal in the US. they built the first tunnel in 1817 at Auburn, Pa. just about 5 miles above Port Clinton, Pa. The canal had 73 locks, 34 dams and 45 Aquaducts . The two highest points were at Laural Hill Farm ( Laural Locks ) #52 and #53 24.13 feet and Fairmont Locks # 72 and #73 24.84 feet.
The Schuylkill Canal went from Port Carbon to Philadelphia 110 miles. The longest canal on the system was the Girard canal which went from Leiws dam #24 to Swartz`s lock #57 22 miles . Infact when ever you go to see the quarry, you will see the old canal along Rt. 724 .

Sorry for the history lesson ,

Len