Sounds like the 261 group (North Star Rail, right?) is amassing quite the collection of ex MILW rolling stock if this is indeed accurate-

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,855822

Joshua

It is true. The car became property of FO 261 late yesterday afternoon (Saturday, 1/22/05). The group has wanted a Super Dome to compliment Skytop "Cedar Rapids" for quite some time. The determination and hard work expended by Steve Sandberg and his crew have made this a reality.

If you wish to support this purchase, may I suggest that a membership in the group for 2005 would be a wonderful way to show your appreciation. Or a donation towards the car would be great also. The car is Amtrak compatible and it is expected that #53, along with "Cedar Rapids" will operate this year behind #261 and in charter service on Amtrak trains. The FO 261 website is: www.261.com

NCDOT had a gallery of photos of this car posted on their website if you wish to see the appearance of this car today. I will attempt to link this if they are still available.

Thanks for your support which allows these dreams to become reality.

Don C.

Here is the link for the photo album of former Milwaukee Road Super Dome #53.

http://www.bytrain.org/equipment/DomeCa ... fault.html


Don C.

What was the Ebay number for the NCDOT auction? What was the closing bid and were there any other bidders?

Thanks,
Tom Cornillie

Here is the auction link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4519450305

Regards,

Erich

Part of the reason NCDOT got rid of this car was the FRA kept coming up with more and more things they had to change to keep it operating. How is FO261 going to deal with all the regs FRA added -- or are these a moot point now that the car isn't in "regular" passenger train service?

It was reported on other lists and groups that the FRA standards that would have applied to this car in regular passenger service (say, had it been assigned to a daily Charlotte-Asheville train) are far more stringent than if the car is used in "historical" service. I'm sure that the Friends of 261: 1) intend to restore her to MILW paint/configuration as best they can while leaving alone modern adaptations, and 2) intend to apply for the appropriate FRA waivers/exemptions. They own several other vintage MILW pieces, including a "beavertail" obs, so it's not like they haven't been through this already.

Matt,
NCDOT did equip the car with removable emergency exit windows in the dome. These are in addtiion to the ones that had already been installed in the lower level. The last "complaint" that I heard about was the lack of a vestibule on the car. If this is reason that the car has been sidelined, allegedly by the FRA, how does Amtrak operate HEP diners in through the territory on the Florida trains? All of the 8500 and 8550 series diners do not have vestibules, either. There are several former lounges and diners in charter service that do not have vestibules. I have not heard of any of them being banned from service.

The real reason for the retirement and sale of this car and the retirement of the diner, two sleepers and the former CGW office car owned by NCDOT, remains a mystery to me. I suspect that part of the reason is that these particular car types no longer fit in with the needs of the state. I, too, would appreciate knowing the real reason before this whole thing becomes another railfan "urban legend". Does anyone have any documentation supporting these speculative allegations?

Don C.

Sandy,
Skytop "Cedar Rapids" has been fitted with emergency evacuation windows but no waiver has ever been requested or required for this car. The issue has never come up. Car was mechanically upgraded in 2003 and 2004 to become Amtrak compliant. It meets all current standards and has operated in regularly scheduled Amtrak trains in addition to the 261 excursion train.

Back to the matter at hand concerning NCDOT "Mount Mitchell", ex Milwaukee Road #53...... There are presently three former GN Great Dome lounges operating in Amtrak or charter service. These cars are Amtrak 10031 (which is operating in California service) and AOE domes "New Orleans' and "Copper Canyon". Recent photos on web lurker's dome main page indicates that none of these three cars currently has a vestibule. They were built with vestibules as can be seen by looking at BNSF "Glacier View" and the former AT&SF full Budd dome which was retained by the Santa Fe and which now operates in BNSF's office car fleet. The Amtrak and two AOE domes were rebuilt without vestibules (I believe by Amtrak for Auto Train service). So what gives? The Amtrak car operates in regularly scheduled Amtrak trains as a revenue car open to the public. The two AOE cars operate in charter service, much if not all, operated in conjunction with Amtrak. I do not know of any waivers requested or offered for these three cars and, for the most part, they are almost identical to Milwaukee Road #53.

This sort of speculation presented to the wrong parties might result in the "banning" of open platform cars, baggage cars as recording cars or dance floor cars, dome cars and other "unusual specimens" if overzealous politicians, bureaucrats, lawyers or risk management executives deem them as "dangerous". Nothing is further from the truth.

Don C.

I think that is probably as relevant as any detail.

It would seem to me that (please forgive the stereotyping) a state or other governmental agency is going to look long and hard at every possible regulation, bureaucratic restriction, etc. that can possibly apply to the situation at hand and work proactively to solve every perceived problem, whereas a historical group or private owner is liable to approach such situations reactively--when the situation or condition arises.

Just to speculate wildly again, if I want to play devil's advocate, I could come up with untold reasons not to use such a car. The glass dome is an attractive rock-throwing target (as some PV owners discovered when they visited the B&O Museum for the AAPRRCO convention). Maybe there are tunnel clearance issues on the line they may have hoped to use it on--the Salisbury-Asheville line. The cars are not truly accessible to the handicapped as the Superliners are--and I suspect this could be as good a reason as any, given a couple #*&%+! lawsuit-happy wheelchair-bound blackmaile--er, cough, cough, "handicapped transportation accessibility consultants" that I have had the unfortunate distinction to cross paths with.

Does it matter? The car found a great home. (Although I will admit I'd love to ride to Asheville via the Old Fort Loops in a dome some day......)

[quote They own several other vintage MILW pieces, including a "beavertail" obs, so it's not like they haven't been through this already.[/quote]

Well, actually the Beavertail has never been nor will it ever be Amtrak compliant. It would take waaayyyy too much work, and just isn't worth it. Besides, the only thing about it that's still Beavertail is its history. The Beaver tail is long gone.
Mark D.

Am I confusing terminology again?

Sandy,
What Mark means is that the original tool car "Earling" was, indeed at one time, one of the Beaver Tail observations. The Skytops (such as Cedar Rapids and Coffee Creek) were the last of a line of distinctive observation cars built for the Hiawathas. "Earling" started life as a Beaver Tail and ended up as a storage mail car...."Cedar Rapids" was, and is, a Skytop.

Not all Superliners are ADA compliant BUT there must be an ADA compliant car on each Amtrak train. You will always see a 34000 series coach on any Amtrak Superliner train offering coach accommodations. The "smoking", "coach-baggage" and "cafe" coaches do not provide mobility impaired accommodations. So long as "Mount Mitchell" didn't represent a train by itself, the ADA point is moot if at least one car in the train was accessible.

I'm not going to debate what COULD be done by mis-informed public servants and society-saving do-gooders. Most of them could make a pretty convincing argument to limit automobiles to 10 mph if they wanted to. My point is "Why draw needless attention to yourself and go asking for problems?" I suspect that we wil never know the true reason that the car was sold, but I do know it did go to a good home and it will operate and make many people happy as does its sister car, Skytop "Cedar Rapids".

Don C.