I am curious as to the plans ( near term / long term ) for a number of passenger cars that seem to be near forgotten in Southern New Jersey. Is anyone in a position to comment on the future ( past and present ) of the following equipment ?

A heavyweight (ex conrail ) original Lehigh Valley diner at Winslow Junction NJ

A ex army hospital car ( ex amtrak ) at Winslow Junction NJ

4-5 ex PRR P-70 coaches ( some that at one time came from texas-mexican railway )

3-4 coaches ( look like perhaps CNJ ) commuter coaches or similiar

Alco FA at Winslow Junction ?

ex PRR business car Buffalo 7508 at Wildwood Junction

2 ex PRR P-70 coaches

1 ex PRR / Pullman heavyweight originally "Mineral Springs"

2-4 RDC cars in a unrestored state of repair
1-2 RDC trailer cars ( look like ex B&M ) etc

ex Blue Comet platform car at Rio Grande, NJ


All the equipment listed above, is stored outdoors, with virtually no or little attempt to secure or shield the cars from vandals from destruction.

I know that anthracite chapter owns the diner in Winslow, however who owns all this stuff, and again, why is zero effort put forth to protect, restore or operate any of it ?? I know the CMSL operates trackage owned by the state, and owns a few RDC's a RS-3 etc, and I know some of the equipment (not listed above ) is owned by the state as part of the proposed future museum, however most of these cars listed above are disappearing in each day, wide open in the salt air.

Thanks for any information you can provide ?

I would have to sit and compare a LOT of numbers, notes, and more to provide any *authoritative* answers to that mish-mash of equipment in question, but here's the "best guess" as to the stuff described:

The 4-5 ex-PRR P70's ex-Tex-Mex: Supposedly some of these are ex-PRSL, and all are in relatively-superior shape, given their heritage. They won't likely be used for commuter service, but they may be in better shape than some current excursion cars.

Alco FA: Former LIRR power cab minus prime mover, likely to be held by the Anthracite Ry. Historical Society or some branch of the URHS-NJ for restoration.

Former RDC's: Parts/body-panel sources for the P-RSL RDC's under restoration (I last saw them in Wildwood Junction and Rio Grande, NJ; dunno where they are now.....)

Blue Comet Obs: If this is 1178, it's the URHS car, held for restoration/preservation.


As for the relative "preservation" of this South Jersey equipment, I hate to be a cynic or critic, but almost any storage site south of the Atlantic City Expressway, save for some location deep in the Pine Barrens near Lakehurst, is by definition a "safer" location than any place in Northern New Jersey. Short of shipping this equipment to the Arizona desert or a fortress in Texas, this is going to be the "best" the New Jersey preservationists can do for the time being unless/until the state comes up with a state-sponsored preservation plan/museum or some generous "sugar daddy" comes forth. The managements of these South Jersey rail lines are known to be either sympathetic to the needs of preservationists or active "foamer" railfans themselves. They may not be able to provide covered shop space for free, but I sure don't hear anyone close to New Jersey offering anything better on more advantageous terms...........

I don't think the South Jersey P-70s are the Texas cars. I think the Tex-Mex Rwy P-70s went to Austin Steam Train.

The P-70s that went to Tex-Mex were from the group that were rehabbed in 1980 at Hagerstown, MD (WM shops) by Passenger Car Corp of America (PCCA). Yes, it was a Ross-backed outfit--does the name give it away? After 614 came back to HAG in Nov. 1980, the cars were put up for sale. I recall there were 7 cars in total, one was used for parts and was never worked on otherwise. 4 cars were completed, and two more were at 85-90% when the work was halted. There were 3 cars that went to Texas, and the other 3 went to either the Altoona NRHS or the Ft. Wayne 765 group, in 1982. I think the parts car was cut up. Someplace I have the car numbers-- and a lot of pictures, too. Seem to recall that three were clerestory roof and four cars were round-roof. The parts car was clerestory roof.

These were PRR P-70FBR cars, from the CR Valpo commuter train, bought in late 1979 by Howard Samelson of NY, with backing from Sam Freeman and Ross (who soon bought out the other two partners). They went to HAG in June 1980 for rehab for the Chessie Safety Express-- 614 was being worked on in the roundhouse, and a coach shop was set up in the old backshop.

HP
PCCA Rehab Project Manager, 1980

While I don't know where they were beforehand, the P-70 coaches in Austin came from the Midwest Chapter NRHS in Cleveland.

Chris.

Hi,

It is a little confusing figuring out who owns what at Winslow Jct. without a full roster, as the Southern Railroad of NJ owns some of the historic equipment, and they also provide storage for other individuals and groups. All in all, it is quite a unique and positive arrangement. At Rio Grande, the Cape May Seashore lines has thier own historic equipment, leases some from the URHS and also provides private storage.

Here's what I *think* is the correct info.

As you noted, the LV diner is owned by the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society along with some other equioment at Winslow Jct. including (I beleive) the FA.

The SRR of NJ owns the Tex-Mex P-70's along with the fully restored Lehigh Valley C-420. They also operate two F-7's on another line.


At Rio Grande, most of the RDC's belong to the CMSL (if not all, i forget of the URHS's CNJ #556 is down there). The Blue Comet car is privately owned with restoration planned.


Addressing your concerns about outdoor storage... you are right, it would be better for all of this to be inside. However, there are five separate suituations to consider.

Situation #1: The NJ state museum project is a fiasco, and has been for years. The fact that the URHS has managed to restore some pieces and find them homes, and to find safe-keeping for many of the other peices, is nothing short of miraculous given the political climate in the group and in the state house. Remember, every piece the URHS has was destined for scrap. So ask yourself if thier current condition is better than the alternative? And yes, some of the equipment should go out of NJ, like the CNW F-units painted as LV.

Situation #2: The Blue Comet obs was sent by an NRHS chapter for preservation in South Plainfield, NJ when the chapter got a Blue Comet obs that ins better shape. When South Plainfield lost interest, the car was heavily vandalized. CNJ buff Frank Rielly stepped in and bought it and had her moved for safe keeping in South Jersey last year. Frank is a true-blue CNJ man and is working on having her restored for service. She'll be the only road-worthy ex Blue Comet car of any kind.

Siutation #3: The Cape May Seashore Lines is a for-profit business that has expanded dramatically the past ten years over lines that were defunct and hadn't seen passenger trains in years and years. To run his service, Tony has purchased as much of the fleet of the RDC that the PRSL bought for these very lines. So, he is running a business with historically-correct trains! Plus he has found ways to work with the URHS to house some of their restored equipment, including the "fake" LV F's and a PRR GP-9.

Situation #4: The SRRofNJ is yet another for-profit company restoring and using historic equipment.

Situation #5: The ARHS had what in my opininion was a misguided preservation policy. At least what is stored in Winslow Jct is in a relatively safe place, but the chapter ignored many pieces of true anthracite heritage to collect "replica" units. Most known are the CNJ F-3 A-B-A set which is made up of two BAR F-3A's and a B&M F-7B. They also collected ex LIRR FA's for more replica units. Truth is, the F's got all the attention, and the real anthracite artifacts have taken second fiddle. This is another group that had internal political turmoil. However, one could argue that even if the F's project was out-of-scope for the ARHS, they did manage to keep two F-3's operating. I still dream of the day the A's go back to New England and the B gets reunited with its operable A at North Conway, NH.

Echoing Sandy's response, there is no better alternative for these pieces right now. There are four things that would help:

1. The SRRofNJ builds a shop.
2. The CMSL builds a shop.
3. The state of NJ builds a museum.
4. The ARHS either deaccesses or finds cash and display areas.

All four of these are costly alternatives that two shortlines and two volunteer railfan groups are unlikely to get near-term. So we wait and we hope.

There are good people involved with all 5 situations I outlined, so I wouldn't worry too much at this point.

Rob Davis

I appreciate all that good information, and it is certainly a positive that the "local for profit " ventures have worked and provided some assistance to the other groups who own much of this stuff.

A few weeks back, I was dismayed when I traveled to Wildwood Junction and found a group of P70's and the ex PRR Buffalo business car sitting out doors just south of the abandoned Wildwood Junction train station. These P70's has the classic roof lines, and looked as if they were operational on a short line perhaps 5-10 years ago. The cars, all sit, with every window broken out, vestibules wide open, doors to the cars wide open, and on the inside, the cars were ( for the most part ) complete with original style seats etc, however floor decay, side sheet damage, water penetrations from windows and the roof are quickly making these cars totally unusable ( they are unusable now )...

I understand the vandalism in Southern New Jersey is not what it is elsehwere in the state ( although I do believe a bunch of state owned historical cars on loan or lease to the CMSL had grafitti all over them in the not to recent past .

My question is, as preservationists, why is so little effort spent to stop the damage and decay ( not to mention the liability of someone climbing onto stored equipment, and getting hurt ) I know for the most part, people will say "money", however, marine grade plywood, a saw, and toggle bolts to cover every door and window, and perhaps a 5-8 gallons of asphalt type roof coating, could stop thousands of dollars of damage and decay. After all, how many cars in this world have been lit on fire by vandals ? ( plenty ), How many cars have come to a location in fair shape, and get scrapped on the spot. ( plenty )

I understand, that like a home, car etc, the owner has the right to do what he chooses with what he owns. However, as a group, I question why so many cars, locomotives etc, sit so open to the elements and fall to the elements and vandals hands ?

I do agree that the cooperation of the local for profit railroads, are a blessing. However even from a appearance sake, things look bad and are not "inviting" to the public, when cars and equipment are scattered about looking like a reclamation yard.

I welcome your thoughts, and hope for the best !

Here's a link to a 2.5 year old view of some of the passenger cars at Winslow Junction:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/30641947/49590522xJrToV

Bob Vogel

Here are links to photos of the P70's at Wildwood Junction, taken June 9, 2001:

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Miscellaneous-transit-trains/01_06_09_2

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Miscellaneous-transit-trains/01_06_09_3

The Tex-Mex car at Winslow Junction:

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Miscellaneous-transit-trains/01_08_02_WJ08

Another car at Winslow:

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Miscellaneous-transit-trains/01_8_2_WJ26

and the Alco FA at Winslow:

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Miscellaneous-transit-trains/01_08_02_WJ17

Bob Vogel

Those pictures were great for those who have never been there. Now lets be honest, look at the condition of the equipment ( which in the case of Winslow Junction ) is in a semi-residental neighborhood. I ask, even though vandals are less of a threat in this area, aren't the cars / equipment 100 perecent neglected ? Again I know, the owners have their choice of what to do ( or in this case not to do ) with their own property. However, why 75 percent of the time does it come down to outdoor equipment, left open, rusts out, becomes impratical to restore, scrap another car.

I realize not every car can survive, and we are pretty lucky ( in the large picture ) so much survives. However someone explain to me, how as groups where we intend to preserve, we allow so many pieces of equipment ( all around the country ) left to the elements.

After all, between the P-70's at Winslow Junction and Wildwood Junction, you would almost have enough for a 6-8 car Pennsy matched consist train.
However instead, it would appear that each car is slipping further and further to the elements and ultimate disposiition, scrap. Add in a B-60 Baggage car that still can be found ( there is one of them at Winslow too )and wow, its 1950 again !

Someday a K4 might run, would be ashame to see no authentic cars to every run behind it. ( hey everyone, can't hurt to dream ? )

In addition to what has been stated in other posts, this is also offers a classic example of why certain "NIMBYS" have valid complaints when it comes to tourist or freight railroads operating in town. Even though I am a railroad employee and railfan just the same, I would not want to live next to this example of a scrap yard anymore than I would want to live in the old and historic Devine Lorrain Hotel at Broad and Fairmount in North Philadelphia in the current condition it is in now (very rundown) and the condition of the neighborhood (beyond rundown) as of right now.

Now, on the same token, if these cars do have any sort of future (ie:operation on the CMSL or at Phillipsburg or any other rail museum or with a K4 perhaps) wouldn't it be beneficial to find out who exactly owns each of these cars, be it non profit or private, so that the people complaining about the lack of maintenence and general upkeep, as well as anyone else who gives a hoot about these historical cars, can get together and help "preserve" these cars for the possible future use?

We have to be fair and chip in (money or time) if we have a complaint about something....it's like anything you would deal with. Would you sit there and complain about the trash on the sidewalk in front of your house for days, weeks or years on end, or would you try to do something to change what is wrong and go out with a broom, pan and trash bag and clean it up ?

I totally agree, no matter what the situation is, or where it is for that matter, if someone publishes a "comprehensive plan" for fund raising, restoration ( or even stabilization ) I would take large dollars out of my pocket and offer them to the right group. ( of course tax free status would also be nice, however that is not necessary )

I for one, believe that "a lack of vision of tomorrow" causes much of the decay and ultimately leads to the end of the line for so much equipment, that perhaps arrived on the property in good or at least fair condition. Having a opportunity to look at most of this equipment first hand ( much of that is not shown in these photographs ), you would be hard pressed to be able to interchange any of it anymore, do to equipment falling off, steps that have rusted off and hang on etc.

I am not here to make southern New Jersey the poster child for neglect, I am here with the goal, or understanding what can be done to stop it from happening at this and other locations.

Trust me, its not a New Jersey problem. Equipment is scattered around on unused sidings all around. From GG1's in Cooperstown Junction New York to PRR heavyweight cars rusting to pieces on the Everett RR south of Hollidaysburg PA.

Once again, I guess it comes down to, if you own it personally do what you choose ? If its group owned ( as much of the equipment is ), a better plan of attack needs to be put in place. I will give you my 2 cents of an example.

In Altoona the Horseshoe Curve Chapter owns a heavyweight ex PRR Business Car called the Duquense ( its now been primed and stored at Union Tank Car in Altoona ). The car is a huge undertaking for any individual or group due to the years of neglect dating back to the PRR , Penn Central, and early Conrail I believe. So, the Altoona Museum decides to thin out a bit of its collection . ( which I believe is a good idea ). So they decide to donate the Union League Club ( a Pullman / PRR SOlairum Lounge Car that was in M&W service to the same group.

I ask, why ? From initial looks, the Duquense isn't too much further than it was 10 years ago ? Was a plan presented to the museum on what they intend to do with the Union League ? etc... Most groups operate under the impression if it is free lets take it. However perhaps this car, and 100's more might of had a better chance of survival if some prequalifications wer done. ( either finanicially or what has this group or a group restored ).
I know this same group has some ex lackawanna coaches etc.

So I am not being critical, just saying this is a small industry, and I do believe that everyone operates with the intent initially to do well. However how do we stop the process of rust on 80 year old equipment with no money, no labor, and no desire ? Perhaps as the old statement goes " less is more " or as Neil Young once said " Rust never sleeps "

I welcome constructive thoughts ?

What we are really getting at here is how poorly the PRR has fared in the preservation era. Outside of the PA state museum, there has been precious little done to truly represent the PRR.

When I had to chance to save a completely intact modernized P-70 ready to roll (it was sitting on a live interchange track) 10 years ago, I could not find one museum, group or operator ready to work with me to save the car. Not one.

For all the SPFs do to model and document our Standard Railroad of the World, proper preservation has been virtually non-exisitent and - again, save for the RRMofPA - done as one-offs or handled by individuals themselves.


Rob Davis

Here are some interesting facts!

I bought all of the Cleveland P70FBR's from the folks in Cleveland including one with a dented corner post. I believe it was about the time of of the K4's "second coming" and its ill-fated trip to York PA. I offered to lease the cars to the folks in Altoona for $1.00/car/year. I was told "no thanks" by the then Chairman of the museum board who claimed that the K4 would never run again. I then sold the cars to my good friends Arthur Boone and Henry Renfert who purchased them on behalf of the Austin Steam train association so that their train would have a matched set of equipment.

Several years ago I tried to "broker" a deal between the CMSL and the ARMM for a $1.00/ a year lease with the caveat that the ARMM restore to cars to tourist service with possible a truck rebuild to run behind the eagerly awaited and long anticipated "third coming" of 1361.

It was at that time that the museum discovered that it had financial problems and the conversation died. The ARMM or the local NRHS group would have ben the ideal group to take custody of the cars since they had the ability to tap the ISTEA bucket to fund the work.

All that the CMSL wanted was the ability to run the cars once a year on their railroad.

Not a bad deal, but it died a slow death.

Hence the skeletons in Rio Grande, Nuevo Jersey!

Actually there is more PRR stuff preserved than any other RR. Just about every museum or tourist operation east of the Mississippi River has one peice of Pennsy equipment. Look how many GG-1's are actually in museums. Then there are at least two PRR geeps running on tourist RR's.
Then 3 E-units. One in St Louis or some place on a tourist RR and the two owned by Mr. Levin. Then there are all the private car owners who have Pennsy cars. Their are plenty of clocker coaches around, Providence and Worchester has 3 and Milw 261 has a few. Then there's the Museum in Strasburg who has mostly Pennsy stuff. Then the Altoona group.
You also can't go anywhere without running into a Pennsy caboose, there are a dime a dozen. There are more than enough peices of Pennsy equipment preserved. HOWEVER the heavyweight passenger fleet may be not as well represented as other aspects of he PRR roster. To put it simply the Pennsy is the best preserved RR in America I feel b/c there is so much of it preserved. If anybody disagrees with me I will attempt to put together a list just to show how much is preserved.

Lest we forget, a poster on this thread named Bennett Levin and others in his family have preserved PRR skeletons and put the "flesh" back on them! In other posts on this Group, we have seen how beautiful they look!
Also, Dave Ross and pals not only did LV 353, but also helped with a PRR Broadway Limited obs.