Scott, I want to hear it from someone in the know, not the rumour mill, but one of the posters on the Chaski board said cracks were found in the boiler of 1361. Are these new discoveries, or old ones we already know about that existed near the steam dome, hence the patch? I used to enjoy reading the updates on the 1361 restoration website, but they seem to have abruptly ended last August (believe the webmaster & wife had a baby?). Anyhow, any further updates as to progress would be appreciated, enquiring minds want to know.

Well, I'll offer some comments on this specific example. Please understand that I am an outside, though sypathetic, observer, and do not speak for the B&O management.

That said, here are some factors to consider concerning the questions you raise about this institution and this specific artifact.

First, about the instiutution. Though the Museum has a rich institutional history, the current museum in its current management and financial structure dates only to about 1989, when they were spun off from CSX. Now, some thoughts about the spinoff. CSX was a good corporate citizen and very generous to set the museum up, establish an endowment for it, and fund extensive repairs to the physical plant, especially the Roundhouse roof, prior to the spinoff. All honor to them. Now, the other side of the coin. Income from the endowment was barely enough to cover heating and light for the buildngs. Everything else--staff salaries, collections care, exhibits, everything, the museum had to devise a new financial structure to pay for. It was quite a task.

What's more, the museum inherited--or was saddled with--a collection that represented many decades of shifting priorities by the parent railroad. It was not a collection that had been assembled according to any long-term coherent collections plan. Thus, the museum ended up with things like a Little Joe and 2--count 'em, 2--GG-1s. It was a collection that was shaped at various times by the need/desire to be 1. a B&O Museum, 2. a universal transportation museum, 3. a Chessie System museum, 4. a CSX museum, 5. a museum of railroading in Maryland--well, there are probably some I left out, but you get the idea--big, slightly incoherent collection.

So that's how things stood when the new management took over--big collection, old physical plant, no restoration facilities whatsoever, limited income, and no business model in place as a nonprofit.

The next 12 years were largely a story of whittling away at these problems. In 1991 the Museum got title to the North Carshop and later the complete North and South Carshop. They began assembling a machine shop, a core paid restoration staff, and a cadre of restoration volunteers. Work began on restorations as resources and priorities allowed, but it was an uphill battle given the size of the collection and the limits of the avialable facilities and staff.

A deaccessioning program was put in place, not without controversy. Some objects like the better GG-1 and the Little Joe found new homes that seemed to promise better care.

At the same time, more equipment came onto the property. For much of the 90s CSX was on a housekeeping campaign, getting old stuff off the property. Often the museum was offered a deal like this by CSX: if you want this car, we will ship it to you free on its own wheels and deliver it straight to Mt. Clare Junction. If you don't want it, we will cut it up next week. Under these circumstances, the museum took a lot of equipment that was felt to be significant on the principle that waiting for a better day in the Museum's back lot was better than the certainty of the car being scrapped that week.

So matters stood when the Roundhouse collapsed. Progress was being made, but the unflux of equipment was still larger than the outflow, and much larger than the capacity of the shops and the budget to address it.

After the tragedy two years ago the Executive Director and the Board made what is, to my mind, a bold and correct decision to address the root of the problem--lack of shops. Instead of paying for outside restorations of damaged equipment, they are investing much of the insurance proceeds and donations and aid received in building a new state of the art restoration shop. When it opens this year, the new shop will radically improve the museum's institutional capacity to care for the collection.

The Museum has also established a new class of lifetime memberships at a cost of $5000. The neat trick is that proceeds from these "Society of the Iron Horse" memberships don't go into the general operating budget--they are going into an endowment, the income from which is restricted in perpetuity to direct care of the collection. So, the shops provide the infrastructure, and the new Society of the Iron Horse provides a steady, year-in year-out source of dollars to fund restorations and care.

Now, if you're still with me, we can talk about the GG1 in Mt. Clare A Yard. Given all the history and limits above, you can see that restoring this artifact could not ever have been a priority for the museum in the 1990s. The museum did have a collections care plan, but part of that plan was that certain items were placed in a category of "parked and otherwise uncared for" until circumstances changed. With limited resources, more significant and critical artifacts like the EA, the USRA 2-8-2, the P-7 Pacific, and the Reading 4-8-4--all in desperate need of care--would always be a higher priority than something like the GG1. Yes, outside funds could be raised, but the museum was already and always raising funds for all the priorities outlined above. The odds of getting to the GG1 were effectively zero, nor would the museum explicitly raise funds for it over other priorities.

How about deaccessioning? My guess is that if the museum had ever received a serious offer, they would have happily and seriously entertained it. But GG1s are common, most universal and PRR-specific museums already have one or more, and no one was walking up to the museum with a plan and cash in hand to pay to move the thing. The museum certainly can't pay to move it--see resources comments above. So, there it sat.

If the goal is really tidying up the property and removing items that have no near- or long-term hope of receiving care, and absent someone with the will and resources to offer many items a better home, the Museum's only alternative would be to cut them up (a scrapper is conveniently located with a rail siding adjacent to the property--nothing would be easier). If a few desperate cases, this has been done--a few run of the mill EMD switchers and a South Shore interurban as I recall. For the rest, I think we can all agree that it's good the Museum did not go that route, tempting though it must be at times.

So here we are. It's a complex history that got the Museum to where it is. In my opinion, Courtney and Ed have great plans afoot to get the museum to a better place. But it will take time. And in the meantime, some objects (even many if you prefer) will continue to be completely exposed. But as you can see, the situation evolved by happenstance, not malice or wilful neglect, and there is no easy road back out of it that anyone has yet been able to identify.

I'm sure other museums with large collections have equally complex stories, and face equally difficult decisions about how to allocate resources, including fundraising energy.

As for me, I reached deep deep deep into my pocket and just arranged to join the Society of the Iron Horse. Though it represents a lot of money to me and my family, I am very grateful to know that my money will generate income to care for the collection I love long after I am gone.

Again, my observations only, no official endoresment of any kind implied.

I commend Erik for his informative and certainly well reasoned post. It could readily form the basis of an editorial. Surely, MONEY as well as the time and effort of worker bees, are the only factors that get "things" done! The "mortar" that binds the effort and the money together to achieve results is called leadership and vision. Surely there is an abundance of it in Baltimore.

Erik,

thanks for the input on the "how we got to where we are" in Baltimore. It was refreshing to understand the priorities of this organization and plans for the future.

I certainly will look into a contribution to the cause, as I believe no place has fought harder, and rebounded from disaster with a plan for the future, better than the management in Baltimore.

Every person from paid staff to those who donate their time, energy and dollars should be commended for their efforts.

In regards to the GG1, your narrative was quite interesting and informative. I guess, in this case, its priorities that address where dollars go and that indeed makes for better decision making.

I appreciate your time, and believe all who read your narrative will walk away with a better idea on how to professionally run and management a transportation collection such as the B&O museum

thank you very much !

I can add a minor degree of additional background to the GG1 story in Baltimore.

Both the GG1's in question were personal pet projects of certain individuals at one time or another. The first, 4890, was acquired from Amtrak in the 1980s for the going price of $5,000 FOB Wilmington in a drive that was spearheaded by George Nixon, perhaps Baltimore's biggest "foaming railfan" of the 20th century (father of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, and the epitome of the "slobbering Pennsy foamer", as evidenced by the thousands of PRR P70 and K4s photos he had). It was felt that Baltimore deserved to have a GG1 stuffed and mounted in town, and the B&O Museum, which as Erik mentions, was at the time the catch-all Baltimore railroad museum rather than a "B&O" museum. So the 4890 ended up on display there, usually right beside the CSS&SB "Little Joe" (which ended up there because the South Shore was at that time under Chessie control, I think).

In the first round of house-cleaning at the B&O Museum both the 4890 and Joe were declared surplus to the needs of what had by then become the "museum of the B&O", and were offered up. The National Railway Museum in Green Bay got the 4890, which likely caused the PRR-loving Nixon to roll in his grave (he died in 1994); the Lake Shore gang at North East, Pa. got the Erie-built Little Joe to add to an ever-increasing GE-focused collection.

Cue foreward a few years. Another individual or two in the DC area take it upon themselves to spearhead the preservation of ex-NJT 4876, the Union Station runaway of 1953. Their initial idea was preservation at the appropriate track in Union Station in D.C.--which, as a moment's thought will tell, was a thoroughly-misguided plan on several accounts (access, the PR problem of a notorious wreck loco in a passenger terminal, etc.). Somehow 4876 ended up at Mt. Clare's "A" Yard, probably awaiting eventual scrapping at current rates.

Would there be a place for a G in Baltimore? Ironically, reconstruction at Penn Station in Baltimore has made much former platform space and trackage vacant, even after the addition of a Light Rail platform, which means that in theory a station display of 4876 or another GG1 on its actual former turf is at least possible. However, as Dan Cupper might point out, the 4859's display in Harrisburg, Pa. may provide a cautionary tale--nice to look at from afar, but that's about all you can do with it, and then Amtrak may still want you out.

I can add a minor degree of additional background to the GG1 story in Baltimore.

Both the GG1's in question were personal pet projects of certain individuals at one time or another. The first, 4890, was acquired from Amtrak in the 1980s for the going price of $5,000 FOB Wilmington in a drive that was spearheaded by George Nixon, perhaps Baltimore's biggest "foaming railfan" of the 20th century (father of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, and the epitome of the "slobbering Pennsy foamer", as evidenced by the thousands of PRR P70 and K4s photos he had). It was felt that Baltimore deserved to have a GG1 stuffed and mounted in town, and the B&O Museum, which as Erik mentions, was at the time the catch-all Baltimore railroad museum rather than a "B&O" museum. So the 4890 ended up on display there, usually right beside the CSS&SB "Little Joe" (which ended up there because the South Shore was at that time under Chessie control, I think).

In the first round of house-cleaning at the B&O Museum both the 4890 and Joe were declared surplus to the needs of what had by then become the "museum of the B&O", and were offered up. The National Railway Museum in Green Bay got the 4890, which likely caused the PRR-loving Nixon to roll in his grave (he died in 1994); the Lake Shore gang at North East, Pa. got the Erie-built Little Joe to add to an ever-increasing GE-focused collection.

Cue foreward a few years. Another individual or two in the DC area take it upon themselves to spearhead the preservation of ex-NJT 4876, the Union Station runaway of 1953. Their initial idea was preservation at the appropriate track in Union Station in D.C.--which, as a moment's thought will tell, was a thoroughly-misguided plan on several accounts (access, the PR problem of a notorious wreck loco in a passenger terminal, etc.). Somehow 4876 ended up at Mt. Clare's "A" Yard, probably awaiting eventual scrapping at current rates.

Would there be a place for a G in Baltimore? Ironically, reconstruction at Penn Station in Baltimore has made much former platform space and trackage vacant, even after the addition of a Light Rail platform, which means that in theory a station display of 4876 or another GG1 on its actual former turf is at least possible. However, as Dan Cupper might point out, the 4859's display in Harrisburg, Pa. may provide a cautionary tale--nice to look at from afar, but that's about all you can do with it, and then Amtrak may still want you out.

Seems to me that Mr. Mitchells narrative on the B&O Museum did a lot to explain how the GG1 ended up where it is. I've often lamented that we didn't provide an endowment of some sort for our Rdg.T-1 (2101,AFT1) to pay for its periodic repainting etc., as the last time I saw it the condition was shamefull! I'll take the responsibility to work with the Museums management and raise the $$$$ needed to get her cosmetically back in shape.
I'm also wondering why no one from the ARRMM has answered Finderskeepers question on the 1361. Not having direct answers from those in authority is how rumors get born and grow. Seems to me that it will be in the best interests of the ARRMM to have an update-straight from the horses mouth!!
IMHO-Ross Rowland

Ross,

on a side note, just curious, when did you sell your business car "the Independence" and didn't it go to Mexico ? I thought I read somewhere that the car came back to the states, and was located at a manufacturing facility in the mid-west and used for meetings etc.

do you still own any cars ? and are any cars stored up in Lebanon ? What ever happened to that heavyweight called the "American Dream ".

appreciate the information, and I agree, the T-1 in baltimore could use a donation from each and every member and father and son who watched it years ago.

please post information on where to make donations and how you intend to manage the process when it all comes together. I will be certain to make a contribution.

I sold my heavyweight PV the "Independence" to the FMC Corp. in 1989. They moved it to Mexico, did extensive additional interior "fancying-up" and as I understand it used it down there as an entertainment vehicle. Sometime in the mid-90's they moved it to thier HQ's outside Kansas City where it has sat since. I'm told they still use it occassionally as a stationary entertainment vehicle?? It was previously named the Brothers Two after my brother Bob&I who bought it from P/C in 1968 I believe it was.
The only cars now stored at Lebanon belong to the URHS. The only equipment I still own is the 614 and aux. tender now stored at Port Clinton, Pa.
Ross Rowland

Ross...

Switching gears for a second, certainly the past stories and all your efforts to run steam, no matter if it was in the 1970's 80's and 90's gave great pleasure to so many people. Your accomplishments have been tremendous.

Are you able to comment on what you think the future holds for the 614, steam excursions with the 614 or any other mainline locomotive, the insurance crisis, relationships with class 1 and 2 railroads, and the overall "feeling" on operations now and in the future ?

Is it safe to say running on a class 1 is no longer likely to happen, so places like the Ohio Central etc, are the likely choices ?


And one more quick question, at the end of the American Freedom Train, how and who was responsible for selling off cars and equipment. Can you take a moment to explain how the train was disassembled at the end of the event, and the possibility of there ever being another nationwide event like that ?? ( or have the lawyers taken over the world and ended that possibility ? )

thanks Ross for your time !

Mr. Rowland, I know you had nothing to do with the current situation, but I advise you to tread lightly on the issue of AFT 1 at the B&O Museum.

A lot of Reading fans/fanatics on a lot of other railroad forums (including one or two I've seen you at in the past, so you should be familiar) have wasted untold bandwidth expounding at length on the sad condition of AFT 1, *but* at the same time demanding that said locomotive be either repainted into Reading colors and/or sent to Strasburg or Reading to "give it a proper home". (Never mind that, one, they never offered to actually pay for the repaint or come down to help, or two, the Reading area already has Reading 2124 at Steamtown and a presumably-operable 2102 on the Reading & Northern, or three, they had forgotten a fully-operable 2100 in Canada up for sale....)

I will plead guilty to photographing AFT 1 during a switching move when its deplorable cosmetic condition was out for all to see, and posting said photograph here (but not at other forums), a couple years back.

The cumulative effect of this "abuse" has been to put the Museum's staff, or at least the ones who have to answer to these sour grapes, on a heated defense. One official, now no longer with the Museum, almost threw me off the property while I was on a business visit after the posting of my photo; when I said I could seriously round up a posse of volunteers to help at least stabilize the loco or prep it for repainting, he shot back, "You come back with a check for $40,000, and until you do don't say another %#(* word about it!" The AFT 1, along with a couple other locos, have become a VERY sore spot with the Museum, and I'm certain they're as frustrated with the condition and circumstances in the situation as the most rabid AFT or Reading fan.

The roundhouse collapse has put them further behind, of course. I would imagine that AFT 1 is on the short list of equipment to roll into the paint booth first once it's finished, but certainly an infusion of fund-raising would be welcomed to help speed the process. There are other prime candidates that happen to be closer to the paint shop, including thoroughly-peeling C&O 4-6-0 377 and the B&O President and 2-8-2.

As I posted above I take the primary responsibility for the AFT1's condition as we should have provided the B&O Museum with an endowment for the locomotives upkeep when she was put into the collection in '79. I'll now do my best to correct this. As to the fanatical fringe RDG. group,let 'em put up or shut up!! All the griping and non-constructive critisism accomplishes nothing!
As to the future of mainline steam, I believe that if Amtrak survives then mainline steam has a reasonable chance of happening under the Amtrak banner. Without Amtraks contractural relationship and its concurrent liability coverage there's no way the Class1's are going to allow steam excursions on thier mainlines. I also think that there will come a time for another American Freedom Train type special train, probably to celebrate the incredible efforts of our Armed Forces in thier recent campaigns. The question is when??
In the interim the best we can hope for is the Ohio Central type operations(not mainline-but better than 15mph shortline) on captive regionals that are pssgr. friendly! It may only be 30 mph but it's far better than nothing!!!
Ross Rowland

Any cracks found in the boiler are old news and repaired. Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I do not have the opportunity to check this board everyday for people leaving me questions. I respond as I have the chance. I have never made a secret of my email should anyone want to contact me directly at the Museum. Unlike this board, I check my email everyday.

Scott

I might add that in addition to the announcement of the donation that will complete our roundhouse and turntable complex, an announcement was also made that the Railroaders Memorial Museum has established the Harry Bennett Endowment. The earnings will be used solely for the future maintenance of #1361 and the building that will house her. Contributions can be made in any amount now the the fund has been established. Anyone wishing information on how to give can contact the Museum or The Central Pennsylvania Community Foundation at 814-944-6102.

Thanks

Scott

Ross,

Would you please define the word "own" as you used it in the sentence, "The only equipment I still own is the 614........etc"? Was there not a "mortgage" on that locomotive held by someone else? Or was that satisfied?