Mike,

I will disagree with you, but you need not make a list, just read my argument.

Outside of Strasburg, the PRR is not well preserved other than by individuals (like Mr. Levin) or smaller adhoc groups like the caboose owners you identify.

The key to my argument is the word "preserved." There are a lot PRR pieces out there rotting away with a precious few actually preserved... meaning properly restored or in arrested decay with a secure financial structure and some chance of long-term survival as a properly cared for artifact. The bumps in Altoona should remind us of how tenous "stability" can be.

Now, you can argue the term "precious few" and call me nuts.... there are probably more PRR boxcars restored today than there are New York Central steam locomotives in existence. But, the PRR's influence should dictate that a greater amount of its equipment is properly cared for. And this is where I find it lacking.

If you take away equipment in Lancaster County from the list, is there proportionately more PRR equipment preserved than B&O (minus Balitmore), NYC, AT&SF or UP?

Worse, when you look at irreplacable PRR equipment not in Lancaster County, you will find that some of it is "preserved" only in the sense that the museum or owning group hasn't plowed the final pile of rust into the ground. 25 restored N-5a cabooses don't make up the loss of other more significant peices left to the ravages of time.

To put a sharper point on it, I think there is a feeling that the PRR is well preserved becuase of the assets in Lancaster County, but when one looks at the condition and viability of PRR locomotives and rolling stock in other places, the picture is not as rosy.

I also think that many fokks, formerly myself, think that the RRMofPA will be the savior of all that is significant of the PRR, but they cannot be. So, the dream that "it will end up in Strasburg since they *have* to preserve the PRR" usually meets reality at the hot end of a torch or the blunt end of a front-loader.

Remember Andy Muller's PRR E-8's? Did you think those were preserved and saved at the time? Well, one is a church in Alabama right now. Complacency and a sense of commonality ("Oh, it's just Pennsy") are the enemy of PRR equipment today.


Rob Davis

The discussion regarding , equipment is certainly an interesting one, that finds a host of opinions and history, that is interesting to learn. As mentioned in previous posts, the P70 ( like the dinosaur ) has become extinct in that besides the cars that went to Texas ( which are still operating ), others seem to languish out there in very limited quantity and I don't believe any still run. Although in quantity they were mass produced, in theory so little of them survive.

Throughout this thread, many interesting comments and histories have been noted, however has the true owner of the P70's of South Jersey come to light ? I would assume the some of the cars are owned by the CMSL and some are owned by the SRR of NJ ? I assume these cars were bought for a reason, ( assuming to run them at some point ). I thought I remember reading ( some time back ) that the CMSL had the PRR RS-3 and PRR / PRSL P-70's with the hope of running them ? Now I know the CMSL has cars from the state's proposed museum on the property, so my question is what does the future hold for these coaches in Southern New Jersey ??

Some cars ( like the PRR business car 7508 ) are here today, however should be gone by tomorrow. The rot and rust doesn't even allow the floor in areas to hold the weight of a person. Other cars, ( such as the Mineral Spring ), someone has been attempting to at least stabilize the car for the future.

Is the Mineral Spring owned by the CMSL ? If so, why aren't all the cars seeing some minimal effort, to keep vandals and the water out ?

Now, I give much credit to Tony M, for his efforts in preservation of the line from Tuckahoe to Cape May, returning many of the RDC"s that ran that route to home rails, preservation assistance of th Tuckahoe train station and now tower, among some other accomplishments. In the preservation arena, it would be nice, if those who support this operation, knew what the plan and the future was for the operation.

So, although the PRR was the largest railway in terms of equipment, and I agree that many artifacts survive, is it time to realize that a P70 is rare and should be agressively preserved. Or do we choose to ignore, such artifacts with the hope that the owner / owners develop a plan that someday will make cars such as this see revenue service ( of some kind ).

My theory is, no matter if its Winslow,Rio Grande or Altoona, we are losing the battle against the elements. As the snow falls on the roof of each car, water penetrates side sills, collision posts etc. Isn't it time that owners of equipment, who take on the responsibility of ownership, fufill their missions, or pass them on to those at other locations that might benefit from the possession ? Or, am I mistaken, in that the owner indeed has the right to neglect, operate etc, as he ( or she ) deems appropiate.

Time will tell, on these and 100's of other mothballed cars and locomotives ?

I welcome thoughts on the subject !

Yes, there isn't enough of the rare examples around. However there still is a ton of PRR equipment around. I've been looking at roster on museum websites and there is tons of PRR stuff out there. However will say that the types of equipment preserved aren't as diverse here's a list of museums other than RMPA and Altoona that have PRR Equipment
IRM, Green Bay, RMNE, Danbury, URHS, Florida Gulf Coast, Several in NY. Then there is other smaller groups throughout PA that have stuff that is PRR however I will say that the majority of Pennsy equipment is duplicates such as stainless cars, cabooses GG-1's, etc etc. I do agree that there are other peices that aren't preserved, example Alco Deisels and GE road units. I too am one of the people who has the attitude "so what its just Pennsy" but I must say that I can go anywhere in the Northeast without seeing PRR equipment. I wish I could say the same for my favorite RR.

Older PRR freight equipment is rapidly disappearing. A lot of elderly rolling stock naturally gravitated to Altoona and Hollidaysburg, but Norfolk Southern is taking advantage of high scrap prices to attend to some overdue housecleaning. Yesterday I watched a dismantler cut apart an old PRR cast-steel flat car; next in line was an ancient X29 boxcar that once had steam lines for use in passenger trains.

Alan Maples

Unless things have changed recently, the 3 P-70s at Winslow are privately owned. Two of them were lettered Tex-Mex, while the third one came from New England. There was a derelict ("nothing left to weld to") PRSL P-70 there at one time, but it got scrapped maybe a dozen years ago. The B-60 is owned by the railroad. The PRR cars and one of the Alcos were supposed to be used on a tourist train, but it hasn't happened yet.

Ex CNJ RDC #556 is currently on the Morristown & Erie RR. It may have been moved to the ex NJT MU yard in Morristown which is currently off limits due to NIMBY concerns. This RDC was interior-wise in fine condition until it was heavily vandalized by teenagers while it was stored on a siding with other equipment. New windows which had been replaced were broken and the car has languished since that time. The people who had originally volunteered to undertake the care of this car have basically walked away from it., and it remains as is. A typical scenario.

Whether you like the museum effort in New Jersey or not, it basically attempted to store the equipment in what was hoped to be secure places
and eventually place same in a central location which was hoped to be the State Museum of Transportation. Some of these places were safe to an extent, such as the Public Service Plants. Twenty years ago Public Service was responsive to the request to store these items. Today, the reverse is so, the Gilbert plant where some equipment was stored is losing it's rail connection, so the items stored there must go. In Northern New Jersey the Ridgefield Park plant has also been persistent in the equipment there be removed. Equipment that needs much work prior to rolling an inch. Things like this cause a domino-effect problem to the preservation effort. There is a distinct likelihood that there will be much more equipment withering away in the not to distant future, at other "Winslow Junctions".

The short line railroads mentioned like the CMSSL, and the SRR of NJ have been extremely cooperative, but they are short-line operations, and typical of these type of businesses, they have high aspirations, but not a lot of money to go around. I would think that they feel that their commitment to any restoration venture would simply be allowing anyone to store it on their railroad. And to simply say "I'd reach in my pocket" isn't really the entire answer to the problem.

The topic about deserted equipment comes up quite often, and quite often the answer is always the same. There is basically not a lot of people out there willing to take the time and effort to do this kind of thing any more. Insurance concerns, NIMBY's, lack of an adequate workplace or the proper equipment. Add to this the FRA's prohibitions on cast wheels and friction bearings, requiring these items to be transported under special movements, all adds up. I never in my wildest dreams, when I started working on this equipment realized how labor-intensive it is.

This topic fits in well with an earlier one "What do we tell the dreamers", but at least in that topic, there were people willing to undertake a specific task.

Lets again go back to the Winslow Junction scenerio. Cars in varying stages of disrepair all needing at least some effort to stop the effects of the weather and eliminate the possibilty of vandals causing more damage.

Ok, in regards to the immediate needs, this equipment needs not so much restoration as it needs labor and some dollars to coat the roof on cars, plywood up windows and doors, clean interiors, prime paint the outside, and tarp each car if appropiate. This would be true for cars everywhere that sit neglected ( not just Winslow ) as Winslow is just a random location that we have chosen to use as an example.

Now, that being said. Based upon my estimates, I bet $ 1000.00- $ 1500.00 and 2 weekends for 2-3 men could take 3-4 cars and at least protect them from the elements in lieu of leaving them open to the elements. Now that being said, I fully understand that restoration is an expensive proposition and that typically a shop with special equipment, indoors is usually the course to go. So, as those facilities are not say available at the moment, nor is the money to spend 50,000 to 100 k on a coach restoration, the best we can do is to protect cars in lieu of restoring cars.

I for one, don't believe that dreaming will make this happen. However, perhaps a non profit "friends" group is the way to go ? However to have that, cooperation from the owner is essential and needed ( as again alot of this equipment is privately owned ). I am uncertain as to how to accomplish such a group, as it relates to assisting a for-proft company, however perhaps others who have done this before can speak. Maybe we don't need a formal group, just some dedicated guys for a few days to get it done and maintain the protection.

Before the cart gets too far ahead of the horse, we assume these cars have a purpose where they are ? Perhaps the dream ( if it was one ) to run excursion trains in this area came and went. Perhaps from an insurance perspective, excursion trains are not allowed. Perhaps private individuals on the property of a railroad like the SRR og NJ or CMSL create a liability issue.

When it comes right down to it, simply I would write a check, and do the work, and try to get volunteers to assist in stablizing equipment such as this, however I assume that the owners would be receptive ? I don't believe these cars can be restored outdoors in the elements where they are at. However I do know we could make a difference and preserve the chance of having a chance of restoration at a future date.

Your thoughts please !

I'll join your toast to Bennett and Eric Levin and the PRR preservation work that they've done.

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Buck ... _07_31_113

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Buck ... _07_31_114

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Buck ... _07_31_108

Bob Vogel

Interesting to note the comments on PRR equipment. I gave this thought, along with the Winslow Junction example some thought last evening and remember reading about another type of preservation. I remember reading of historical architectural treasures ( homes, buildings and such ), being listed as endangered by some recognized agency ) Once formally recognized, I imagine more attention was drawn to their plight and perhaps efforts were done to prevent the loss of these treasures.

Now, I don't know of any such case for railroad equipment, station and artifacts. Would it be ideal if a nationally recognized organization ( NRHS / Trains Magazine, etc ) published yearly a endangered species (ie equipment/ structure ) list and by getting more exposure to the problem within the industry, perhaps informal or formal groups can develop to address the crisis one by one ?

I personally like the idea. I have little knowledge of equipment in say Michigan that needs help, however perhaps a speciifc car there ( say a REA express car or something ), has specific interest to me.

Example : I read about the steam locomotive 470 up in New England. I read with great interest the efforts of those on this board to drum up attention to the plight of this unique locomotive. I personally could/would make a donation to many restoration missions that seem to have built up steam to see something happen. However the way this happens is to make those aware of it. If that engine became a poster child for the problem, then it seemed obvious that once the town saw the potential interest in the locomotive, wheels started to turn, and at least some plan was to develop.

So, perhaps I am mistaken, however isn't it time to utilize this forum and others as to the plight of our most dangered equipment ? I say yes, comments ???

The two "P70 incidents" here are perhaps the biggest disservice we in Altoona have ever done to the restoration/preservation community. I have tried hard since my arrival to find appropriate homes for rolling stock that does not fit our mission and have my "ear to the ground" for rolling stock I feel we need to enhance our presentation in Altoona. The Baldwin locomotive in our yard (the oldest Baldwin Diesel in existance) is headed to a good home at SMS Rail in NJ and will be put back in operating condition. The Fruit Growers Reefer in our possession will soon be restored and on display in Savannah, GA. The interior of our derelict RPO should some day soon find itself transplanted into the good body of the Robert Hannegan, the only named Pennsy RPO. As far as the Duquesne and the Union League Club, I can't comment as we do not own those cars. They are the property of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter of the NRHS.

We are working to stop the ravages of snow and rain on our equipment and are racing to complete our roundhouse and shop facility. Indoors we are expected to interpret our GG-1. It will sit in a bay who's walls will be lined with the steel track diagrams and control equipment from a former power manager's office in Philadelphia. We will move the Loretto, Charles Schwab's private coach, indoors. We will move our two classic art-deco streamliners, the Harbor Springs and Jacks Narrows.

I most certainly agree with many of the other posts here about owners of cars being responsible for their stabilization and/or restoration. However, it is one thing in many cases to say "fix them, house them, or let them go", and something quite different to actually find someone willing to take them. There are more derelict cars on museum and private individual's property than there are willing owners to assume the storage and restoration. That's why it is so sad when a "proper" home of a piece of equipment lets an opportunity pass by as in the case of Altoona and these P70s. As one who arrived after the fact, I wish we could turn back the clock and make the wiser decision.

Thanks

Scott

Hello all,

First, I would like to thank "pullmancar" for asking these questions - I have asked about this equipment in the past, but did not receive much useful information.

The B-70 baggage and the P-70 coaches at Winslow Jct. are owned by an individual named Ed Rhone. I have never met this person, nor do I have his contact information. It is my understanding that one of the P-70's was used on the NJT excursions with the C&O 614 and on special trips over the Southern Railroad of New Jersey.

As has been mentioned, the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society, Inc. (ARHS) owns the two former LV passenger cars at this site, along with a former LV boxcar (in Conrail paint) and a ex-LIRR, nee-L&N Alco FA-2.

I do not have any information about the cars at Wildwood Jct. - however, I would very much like to learn more.

I do not think that this equipment is suffering from outright neglect. In Eastern Pennsylvania and Southern New Jersey there have been/are several preservation efforts whereby one individual purchases a piece of equipment and then hopes to attract volunteer labor to help restore it. Obviously, such efforts are limited by the abilities and continued devotion of volunteers as well as the lack of even rudimentary repair facilities. I think that this is the case with these cars, as it appears that work is progressing - albeit VERY slowly. However, this pace of work does bode well for passenger cars.

However, these cars are important – and should not be allowed to rust into the ground for a lack of organization.

As a solution, I suggest that the private owner(s), PRRTHS and other interested individuals meet to form a long-term preservation plan for this equipment and some short term action items.

At the top of my list for a short-term priority would be the construction of a pole-barn to house this equipment could be constructed for between $150,000 and $300,000 (based on costs of similar buildings at the Illinois Railway Musuem, with a range to allow for differing labor and site preparation costs). Putting these cars indoors would go a long way toward arresting their deterioration.

Moreover, having both organization and a facility would give the project credibility – which is important for attracting both outside fundraising and volunteers.

While $150,000 - $300,000 may seem like a large sum, it is roughly what it would cost to make a passenger car in otherwise good condition Amtrak compatible.

Is there anybody here who is in the region and who would be willing to initiate the creation of such an effort? It would take somebody who understands broader principles behind historic preservation and conservation; as well as non-profit and for profit businesses. Likewise the person would have to be willing to endure friction or outright hostility from individuals and groups who would refuse to partner/sit down together because of decades old misunderstandings. Moreover, the person would have to be willing to compromise and let others take the credit in order to facilitate partnerships? The possible result – saving a unique group of passenger cars representing 1920’s-1950’s PRR passenger trains.

Tom Cornillie

The interesting thing about the photos posted by Bob Vogel is that the locomotives had not been washed since two days prior to leaving Philadelphia for Dennision. Prior to the photo being taken then had run through a massive rainstorm that lasted from midnight to 2 Pm the next day.