Indiana Transportation Museum under pressure concerning the appearance of the property:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/230797-1525-009.html

Does anyone here have a complete roster of equipment for the ITM. The equipment listed on their website is rather scanty.

Many thanks,
Tom Cornillie

There is a complete roster of ITM's traction equipment here:

ITM Traction Roster

This doesn't include any mainline railroad equipment, though.

I am most interested in passenger cars. Passenger cars of all types are particularly vulnerable to corrosion when stored outside. They also tend to be more scarce than most other types of equipment since (most) were built in small lots and began to be scrapped in the mid-1960's.

Tom Cornillie

Forgive me, but this information is probably old (& wrong in some way). I don't think a full roster has ever been done and I doubt anyone really knows which things belong to whom exactly.

The biggest group of passenger cars are the 1937 Budd stainless fleet of Santa Fe coaches along with the CB&Q combine that rule the State Fair train. When last I still was involved, we had a CB&Q RPO that I since understand was somewhat damaged in storage and at least one of the Santa Fe cars was burned when in storage I think. Many of the rolling stock are not owned by the museum and this includes a number of baggage cars, Monon SW1 50, Monon caboose, and I believe the newly aquired NKP 1 business car, and at least one E-unit. Of course NKP 587 is owned by the City of Indianapolis.

Last I recall, there is a former PRR/PC rpo in Noblesville, the L&N diner, which are heavyweight steel cars, an NKP bay window cab, a C&O wooden caboose, a lightweight PRR pullman, a couple of steel baggage cars, a former GN steam heat B unit. Freight cars include some ex-Conrail (PRR) stuff, some cars from Crane Naval, but mostly include the large group donated by Alcoa which included a diseasel crane, an old tank car, and a group of Wabash wooden boxcars (many of these are stored off site and probably are available). The Purdue University crane is probably there as well.

I can't say that I know what locomotives are around now, but I know that 3 F A units and one B unit are part of the group. Inside the barn are the Elgin interurban, a wood LE&W business car, the Flager car, and a few other interurban cars and parts. The Singer electric and a fireless 0-4-0 are also part of the group. I know that geeps have run many trains but hard to say whether or not they are owned by the museum, or by members, or........?

A group of cars donated from Conrail included a MOW Pullman heavyweight and a MOW'd former PRR heavyweight club lounge. At least one open window CNJ coach is in storage with these near Fishers, IN along with a number of freight cars including a Monon boxcar.

Sad thing is that by now the group should own some land of their own. This just hasn't sunk in as being a critical thing to the gang that runs the place. The year to year lease with the park gives them the upper hand. Noblesville is no longer a little town north of Indy, it is a full suburb and new people coming to town are not going to be as tolerant. No doubt a few more cars and artifacts will be cut up following this new situation as it usually does each time this comes up.

James Kissinger

As I recall, the Santa Fe Budd cars were operated by NJ transit after Santa Fe and before Indiana Transportation Museum. The long-distance restroom lounges were removed for the commutter service. I believe one of the cars that ended up in Indiana is the 3071 -- the Budd sample pre-production coach.

Elgin interurban????

Actually, the car in question is Chicago Aurora & Elgin 308, a 1906 Niles interurban car that was sold to the Illinois Railway Museum in 1996. Since 1998 it has been undergoing heavy restoration, slated for completion next year, and has been in regular operation at IRM since 2003. CA&E 308's place in the ITM barn has been taken by Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee 172, a privately owned interurban car.


Photo from May 2003, just prior to 308's entry into regular service.

And we painted over that ugly primer soon after the picture was taken, by the way!

Again, I apologize for old information, apparently ITM sold this to IRM at some point and I was not aware. With this in mind, many of the other pieces may have been cut up or sold. I know that a pair of Toronto PCC's were cut up.

James

Does the ITM operate any electric cars today and what had operated there in the past? I know the North Shore car 172 and one of the Chicago 4000 series El cars had been in operation.

What are the future plans for the electric operation?

Just curious

Joel

I don't believe any electric equipment has operated at ITM in about five years. Back when ITM (then IMOTAC) began electric operations in the early 1970's they had North Shore 172 and CA&E 308 operational, but I don't think those operated regularly much later than 1980 and during the 1970's they started using Chicago "L" car 4454 as their regular runner. This car was later retired for some reason and replaced by sister car 4293, which was their last operational electric car and ran until it broke down c1999 or so. The Mishawaka-Twin Branch and Singer locomotives are in good shape and theoretically might be operational, but I don't believe either has ever actually operated at ITM. Other CTA 4000's were probably in limited operation in the late 1970's or early 1980's also, as ITM has a large fleet of 4000-series work cars.

Gentelman and Ladies...

Maybe I am wrong, but one of the points of these forums on RYPN is to offer ideas and solutions to other preservation groups.

That said, it would be great to hear from somebody at Indiana for one and also to hear fom folks at other groups to see how they handled the public perception that the museum (tourist road, etc.) was nothing but a scrp yard.

Like it or not folks, we in the preservation community are not insular to our larger communities. While the gentelman from the parks district said the Indiana was "not a good steward" what does this mean really. Steward of what? More information is needed as to what the agreement is between Indiana and the parks people.

While it is always disapointing to see an organization run onto hard times, whatever the cause. I for one would like to know how we in the preservation community can offer help or suggestions to Indiana, not question what the group is doing without full knowledge of the situation.

J.

I understand your comment, but it should be noted that no shortage of help has been offered over the years by other preservation groups, funding sources, and especially by members of ITM who have little say in how the museum conducts business. Sometimes the help was specific to a car, a specific debt, or special area, other times to keep something from being cut up. These proposals haven't met with much success, though a few exceptions exist.

To answer the first question, the "man from Indiana" saying they are not good stewards is not talking about trains. He is talking about the property and environment in a city park that is leased to them for $1.00 per year. He is a park board member who has a responsibility to do what he feels is right for the park. He isn't a new face and he and others have kept on the museum about this for many, many years, this isn't a first. Years ago, when traction was king, oil and fuel, sanblasting, smoke, and spray painting, and ....... were not part of the picture to the degree they now are. When mainline equipment including the steam engine showed up, the land has taken on a "railroad" atmosphere, not that of a trolley operation. This is evident and should have been taken care of long ago by the museum, but it has never become the priority over other improvements. For its part, the park has spent quite a bit on overall park changes over the years.

The structure of the organization is such that the steps that need to be taken will not likely be taken until a major change in leadership takes place. Not too many years ago, the Frankfort roundhouse was offered to the museum. Various opportunities to buy branch and main lines have been passed over during the last 30 years and even purchases of land next to the existing track. Instead, funds were used to purchase and move additional equipment and add more investment to the present park owned property (buildings track etc). The museum has long overstayed their welcome in the park and it doesn't take an insider to know and see this. The key to the future of ITM to find a new location for the maint and storage activities at the very least, perhaps a new home for the whole museum. This is especially true if planned commuter light rail operations begin on the line from Noblesville to Indianapolis. This could effectively end Fair Train operations. Unfortunately land value increases and zoning requirements have changed dramatically in this once rural area since the early 1980's. Available Indiana lines are not exactly commonplace any longer. All this greatly limits options now.

These comments and notes DO help preservation organizations by pointing out the pitfalls of various management and operational methods, these are the lessons to be learned that I think are most important.

The Western Maryland Scenic, Georgetown Loop, Yakima, and ITM cases all indicate the very real need for any group to have control (perhaps ownership) of the land and/or right-of-way that they operate / use. Obviously, these groups and situations are different, but this an underlying theme. If you can loose your lease at the end of each year, you are not in a secure situation and need to acknowledge that.

The second theme is obviously making sure that each group has and maintains a good relationship with those who can impact the organization from outside. If CN/IC is your landlord, don't do things that make them mad at your organization for example. This would be especially true if the focus of the group is preservation of a depot for example.

A third learning theme from this situation is probably the issue of losing focus on the organization's constitution and goals. This is why I and many others left. Since the focus is no longer on a greater view of transportion or even rail transportation, but is rooted almost entirely on operating the "stainless train" with the greatest emphasis on Fairtrain, only the most dedicated will fight to paint static cars or work on traction. While Fairtrain accounts for a large share of revenues, the fact that interurbans are not run on the museum's interurban line is indicative of this focus shift. The damage that this shift has done to the volunteer pool is substantial and the lack of this attraction at the park doesn't help relations either.

A fourth lesson might be to watch what happens when too many pieces in a museum belong to private entities. Strict agreements must be made on day 1 when the cars arrive related to owner rights and responsibilities as well as museum rights and responsibilities. If not, it often takes a lifetime to untangle these. Museums find themselves in a bind when they haven't done this, both large and small. The end result may be equipment that is left in various states of disrepair or deterioration that reflect ((wrongly possibly)) on the entire group. This is true at places from Mid Continent to ITM, and on. Another result are often lawsuits that drain the coffers.

Hope this helps explain why this kind of thing can be useful in providing solutions not just here, but everywhere in the country. It is important for everyone to know that these things DO happen, but not usually from out of the blue as is so often reported.

James

Sounds to me like this would be the ideal opportunity to start planning a move to the Frankfort roundhouse and railyard and to sell off some of the non-NKP stuff in the collection. Why not participate in saving a real historic site rather than trying to fight the neighbors in a non-historic one where you're not wanted?