Would someone please enlighten me regarding the differences between Heislers and Shays. Aside from the physical appearance, Heisler geared underneath driving small connected wheels whilst the shay is geared outside the frame, why would a company choose one type over the other? I imagine they both offer truck-flexibility useful on uneven lumber tracks and a high power, low speed performance.

Thanks.

I don't think we're allowed to have religious discussions here. :-)

You say "Hi-slur", I say "Hizler,"
I say "Shay" and you say "Willamette"
Let's call the whole thing off...

Of course, the one thing Shay's and Heislers have in common is that neither is as good as a Climax! ;-)

Jokes aside, I know from spending time with the White Mountain Central guys that their Heisler is harder on the track than the Climax. Part of that has to do with power, but I am sure design has something to do with it.

I've ridden examples of all three, but have no stick time on them. Seems the Shay's are the least shaky and most forgiving.

I'd be curious to hear answers to the question based on historic ops but also from what today's engineers are observing.

Rob

Several Heisler advantages come to mind;

- Higher operating speed (20-25mph vs. 12-15 for a Shay, 8-10 for Climax.)

- The center-line drive was said to make re-gauging much easier to than on a Shay. I suppose Climax shared this advantage.

- Heisler could take somewhat sharper curves, again due to the center drive. Shay's were known to bind on a hard RH turn.

-Heisler had fully enclosed gears, preferred especially by log haulers who often operated through water.

But then, I'm a bit biased, having had a personal relationship with a 40-ton Heisler. I'm sure a Climax or sidewinder fan could name as many advantages for HIS machine.
J

Didn't Shays come in bigger sizes (capacity, not gauge) than Climaxes and Heislers?

Having worked on both, the Shay is by far the favorite from my POV. Everything is out where you can put your hands on it without jacking the frame, rolling out the truck and dropping the gear case. Lima built the finest boilers I have worked on as well. ALL geared industrial lokies need frequent attention - Shay made it easiest.

My experience with the Climax is mixed - the one at Mt Rainier about tossed me out of the cab, but I had the rare privelege of firing the wood burner at Puffing Billy and she was a dream - smooth and freindly and blew smoke rings out the stack.

Yeah, Shays - they will follow two scratches in the dirt up the side of a mountain pulling an impressive load behind them. They get my vote for practicality.

dave

I think the shay has a heavier and better built boiler. Shays are also a little easier to fire. Shake the shovel at a shay and it will pop off.

Though they ride differently both types ride pretty well. The 5 at Cass is the best riding geared engine I have ever ridden. It is as smooth as a baby buggy.

John Bohon

Dave, I don't have the wealth of personal experience in the cab, but the history and personal observations do have a couple good clues.

My father's company - Wheeler & Dusenbury, Endeavor, PA - had two smaller shays, a 42-ton Class B shay, and a 47-ton Heisler in 1917. The Shays were immediately retired and stored when the Heisler was purchased, and it ran through the close of operations into 1938.

Their reason was pretty simple - the logs were getting WAY back in the woods, and the the Shays were just too darn slow to get in and get out in a single day.

My father told me, with a memorable hip-shaking demonstration, of how a Heisler felt like an off-balance washing machine under full load at low speed - that big counterweight could only be effectively counterbalanced at one speed, I suspect. I had the priviledge of experiencing that effect firsthand at Cass, with their #6, headed upgrade in the 70's. Yup, off-balance washing machine describes it quite well.

Walt Casler, the now-deceased notable author of the Pennsylvania Logging Railroad series in these parts, worked for both Climax and Heisler in his career, and I was lucky to have spent time with him preparing his books. He always maintained that the Heisler was a much better-built machine than the Climax, and that Climax had metalurgical issues with their driveshafts leading to breakage. He'd documented several cases of Climaxes snapping their shafts, and a few Heislers too.

Also in my family tree is a rather unexplicable story of a distant cousin that was 'run over' by a Shay in the W&D yard and killed. I'm not sure how many times that has ever happened! Fast and sneaky never particularly described them in my mind!

The biggest Heislers were 90-tons. I think Lima built a 120-ton Shay and Climax built one that went 100-110 tons.
J

Hi all
The biggest Shay weighed in at 160 tons. Check with Cass Scenic RR the have the #6
Andrew Martin

I also have first hand experience with the 42 ton Heisler that Jeff A. was mentioning, but no hands on with a Shay or Climax. My gut feeling is that out in the woods with varied terrain, there is an ideal place for both. The Heisler is faster, but still capable of performing on rough temp. track with tight turns. It would be ideal for the long haul out of the woods to the mill, or to a mainline interchange perhaps, while the Shay might be the ideal engine to use on the steepest parts of a logging line in mountainous country feeding cars down to where faster engines could pull the logs to a mill etc.
Not sure that the accessibilty issue holds much water. The center drive line, ujoints, cellars for the pinions etc. that are part of routine maint. and lube aren't that hard to reach with a long spout, or a grease gun, but then I am a short guy. Some of the pinion bearing cap bolts are a bitch however to get to.
One thing I have noticed about balance is that our engine gets a rocking motion going around 9-10mph. which stabilizes about 12 or so. The rocking motion is something you get used to however. I've never had any trouble coping with it when I was firing. The boiler has never given us any staybolt problems and is good for it's original working press. which is 190 as I recall, though we run at 150.http://www.svry.com