Y'all,

Forgive me for the shameless plug, but I'm really excited about the May issue of Trains that just arrived in our offices from the printer this week.

Rypn's own Erik Ledbetter has written a fine piece on six-coupled steam that's the darling of many tourist and museum roads today. You'll see and learn about examples from coast to coast. I know many of you will enjoy it. And Karl Zimmerman shares the story of the Adirondack in upstate New York.

While I'm here, if you have ideas for making Tourist Trains, our incarnation Empire State Railway Museum's former Steam Passenger Directory, a better publication, drop me a note at jwrinn@trainsmag.com.

See many of you trackside and on board this spring at ARM and TRAIN meetings.

Best to all! Jim Wrinn

Jim,
Frankly, I welcome the shameless plug. The biggest crisis facing the railroad preservation field, is that we are becoming isolated from society. With little support from the Class 1’s (the CSX, Polar Express fiasco comes to mind); our aging interest group, and the Class 1’s going out of their way to blend into the background; unless we turn the tables soon, it will come down to, the last one standing, turn off the lights.
To have a national magazine, show how it is done, is a step in the right direction. Of course, I’m a huge believer in the Tourist Train Directory. I’ll come up with some ideas and send them to you. But for starters, I’d emphasize kids and families. Are there walking tours available, youth activities, and etc. Of course, this then puts the burden on us to develop these types of programs.
I would also show it to a non-railroading group and ask them what they think. Frankly, I think this year’s layout is a step in the right direction.
Thanks,
Mark

I wouldn't be so quick to always point the finger at the Class 1s as "non-supportive". Maybe I am in the minority here but we receive a great deal of support from Norfolk Southern and frankly could not do what we do here without them. Everyone needs to remember that the railroads have a business to run and just because a museum or tourist railroad has what it thinks is a "great idea" doesn't mean it is what's good for the Class 1s business and will continue to increase shareholder value. That's what running a public company is ultimately about - shareholder value. Yes, they should want to be a good corporate citizen too but not at the expense of their reason for being. Believe me, we have had our disagreements with NS, but ultimately we work out what's best for both parties. There are a lot more to the "Polar Express type" situations than the average person knows or cares to understand.

Thanks

I fully understand the “business to runâ€

Mark -

your points are excellent - I agree with almost all. You are right that we need to find the next generation of railfans, and, with railroad news these days almost all negative, where will these come from?

For railroad museums to continue into the future - we need to become more family attractive, more museum exhibitis, more things for the kids, and less "collection". For example - it is hard to raise money for a new toilet - one with real toilets that flush, lights work, hot water in sinks, etc, BUT, we can usually raise momey fast to save the "last, one of a kind" equipment, even though we have way more than we can restore or operate.

Now - to a Mom and Dad, or Grandparents who arrive at our museum - which one do you think is more important?

I guess the bottom line is to focus more on our public and less on ourselves. I see signs of this all over - and - it will payoff for everyone that remembers the public and the public needs.

As to getting younger people involved - it will come around. Encourage everyone you can to give whatever they can give, make it a fun hobby, and try to hold on. Kids will get sick of video games and will go out looking for fun hobbies - be there when they do.

Jim

Mark,

I couldn't agree more with the importance of educating the public on both what the railroad industry meant and still means to our economic well-being. We do need to continue to find a way to cultivate a continued interest in railroading. Why is it that Thomas is so popular but we lose the majority of those kids once they are old enough for model trains??

Anyway, it is much bigger than the railfan community. Yes, a large portion of my visitors are railfans but the vast majority of my visitors are not people that would consider themselves to have a particular interest in railroading as an industry. They are heritage tourists. They are the same people who visit Colonial Williamsburg or the Liberty Bell.

I am positive that the Class 1s have ensured they are paying attention to the people who are going to matter when it comes to infrastructure improvements, etc and frankly, that isn't the excursion riding public that will make that decision. That decision will be made in Board rooms all across the USA by the directors of UPS, Georgia Pacific and General Motors.

As the Director of a Museum without (by design) a large rolling stock collection, we spend a great deal of time trying to invent ways to get people through our doors who do not have a particularly inherent "love of trains". It is the only way we can survive. That's not to say I don't want more and more people to develop an affection for the industry but I believe you will find even fewer magazines on the newstand covering amusement parks. I'm not sure shelf space at B. Dalton is the barometer we want to tie ourselves to. Just think of how busy we would all be if we found a way to get the people buying the tattoo magazines to come to the Museum.

Thanks

Jim,

I for one appreciate anything that Trains Magazine does to report on and thereby promote serious efforts to restore and interpret railroad history. If you look at your circulation it is a lot greater than the combined membership of the NRHS, R&LHS, etc. Some of them are casual readers who have an interest in railroading. If they come out and ride or buy stuff from us or (hopefully) join because of something they see in Trains all the better for everyone.

I hope some day our efforts reach the point of being featured in Trains.

Tim Stuy
Secretary
ELDCPS

Jim and Mark-
What IS the next generation to most of us, though? I've heard differing things, and am sometimes somewhat amused when I hear the 20 & 30 - somethings are considered "the next generation." I suppose it depends on your perspective: I see it as, say, kids that are the age of Erik Ledbetter's son and mine --- the 1-6 year old group who hang around with the their mom and dad's and absorb via osmosis --- or have grown up watching our old Pentrex, Scholl and Goodheart tapes. Some see it as today's teenagers. While I agree the "daily" connection is different then it used to be, its still possible --- more effort has to be made, but its still possible.
What scares me more is that many of us are already trying to make in-roads into museum and tourist railroad positions --- only to find that there isn't a lot out there, and what is can be tough to start a young family on, especially given the funding climate of today. And no, this isn't about "the young-bucks want things handed to them on silver platter"; remember how hard you worked to get up the ladder, and how much it hurt when others told you "how easy you have it." Arguably, its just as tough (I won't say its tougher --- political suicide) as ever to make it this world on a daily basis -- let alone get involved in rail preservation.
Truth is, we still have a real communication issue within our own profession, which in turn leads to issues within communicating with the public. For instance: with the exception of maybe a handful of postings here and there on RYPN (and thank you very much for the recent one Mark), most of these positions are, if they are even full time positions at all, tough to even find out about unless your "inside" the organization.
Look, if we can't even support those who have an interest in THIS generation, how can we expect to instill an interest in the NEXT one? We don't advertise to THIS generation or even the outside world what is GREAT about working, say, at an Ely, or a Cass; the ability to live history --- to experience a slower pace of life --- to understand what your forefathers experienced --- to learn a TRADE, one that can't be OUTSOURCED. These are SELLING points --- and we have missed it. Yes, we all know you won't make as much as a lawyer or a doctor --- but dang it, there isn't a PRICE TAG for doing what you love; and we have a nasty habit of always talking doom and gloom around here, instead of looking at what is GOOD and RIGHT about railroading and rail preservation.


I should probably go to the hospital now, as I cracked my head when I fell off my soapbox.

TJ

TJ,
I agree whole heartly with your post. The points that you raise and the points that Scott raises are thoughts that I have had rolling around in my mind.
The very short version is that we have to re-invent ourselves as an industry. That being said, I want to continue this thread and explore different options. BUT, duty calls, I have grants, rulebooks and the phone is ringing. I'll make a post in a couple of days to continue the discussion.
Thanks,
Mark

I should probably go to the hospital now, as I cracked my head when I fell off my soapbox.

TJ

----

TJ - I hope you are OK now. Actually, this is a very good discussion. Think about this - get a stranger to come out to your Museum (a co-worker?), have them do the museum, and give you honest feedback. You might be surprised what you learn.

Jim

Hear him! Hear him! Jim is talking the true Gospel here in my book.

Railroad museums will survive to the extent that they make their subject compelling by telling engagaing, exciting stories in a clean, safe, family-friendly context. There is still a real love of heritage in this country, and a growing market for quality heritage tourism and education attractions. A railroad museum that offers its visitors compelling stories in a visitor-friendly physical plant will find its audience.

Railroad museums will fail to the extent that they function as clubs whose major purpose is collecting for its own sake. Most will disappear as their members age and as their clannishness prevents them from replenishing their ranks.



I worry about this even less than Jim, to a point. Country songs still feature railroading, kids still love big things that move, parents are still looking for an exciting place to take their toddlers and youngsters. There is actually NO PROBLEM getting the 3- to 8- year old set onto your property and excited about what you do if you make half an effort. Read over the earlier thread on Day Out With Thomas for an extreme example, but you can also do it just by offering an Easter Bunny train or a wintertime Holly Trolley or a toy train weekend or any other kid-friendly event. Welcome them and they will come.

What I do worry about, a lot, is whether we can keep them. It pains me to say this, but never have I had a harder time volunteering than with railroad museums and tourist railroads. Any church, any soup kitchen, any trail-clearing group is going to have an entire apparatus devoted to recruiting volunteers, training them, and making them feel welcome and valued. There will be designated mentors, phone trees, frequent training, newsletters, awards, you name it.

We have GOT to be the only field that seems to go out of its way to haze prospective volunteers until they prove that they are "worth it" and are ready to be "one of the club" and have some "sweat equity." Maybe this comes from preserving a little too much of the railroad shop floor working culture--I dunno. But wherever it comes from, we have to be on average the most offputting group I have ever seen.

And I tell you--teenagers will not put up with it. Put 'em down, and they'll walk. Not becuase they're lazy and not dedicated, but because it's rude and they don't need to put up with it when there are equally interesting things to do elsewhere. A lot of 20- and 30-somethings won't put up with it either.

So that's my rant.

The problem is not kids loving trains. I'm sure my son will like trains for years yet to come and he'll end up stalking the last CW4400AC the same way I stalk Rs-1s and guys older than me stalked the last of steam, and so on and so on.

The problem is clannishness, lack of basic organization, and lack of basic courtesy. That's what will lead to our extinction if not checked.

Eric, Well said. Amen to all your comments. As a long time veteran of rail preservation in the south (as brother Jimbo can attest...), I feel that clannishness and internal politics is the worst enemy our movement has.

Well Eric, I couldn't resist--- You're very correct about the appeal a place has to have to the civilian/family market (although I've had more than a few of those types compliment us for our "texture"--the Naugy is no Strasburg, but Thomaston isn't a junkque yard either).

The bit about attracting the younger generation...some of us older guys remember how we were treated 30-35 years ago, and make an effort NOT to do unto other as was done unto us. One thing that sets operating railroad museums apart from soup kitchens, volunteers-in-parks, trail clearers, etc. is the business about having those under 18 handling power tools, railroad rolling stock, locomotives, track machines, etc. There ARE age restrictions on some of what we'd consider the "fun" stuff. And they are enforced, by the state, the insurance companies, etc. In our area, we can't even have a big, strapping 16 year old use a pneumatic spike driving gun. (But you should see him nail 'em in with a hand maul!)

We encourage the teens to take the rules and air brake classes and tests, be active as car hosts, equipment restorers, etc., give them plenty of cab ride time, and basically get them ready to jump into the deep end of the pool when they turn 18. But we need more of them--- it's tough competing with school, part-time jobs and 18-year old's hormones.

As for the twenty-somethings, thirty-somethings, etc., if they have the ability, at the Naugy, they advance. We don't care how young or old they are.

Oh, one more thing. You didn't mention women. Don't forget Chairman Mao's statement, "Women hold up half the sky" (translation: half the population are women). Get women involved in your museum and railroad. Yeah, I know, it's not traditional. So? It was traditional for railroads to lose loads of money and almost all go out of business--- some traditions we don't want to preserve! (that was mostly a joke, guys) The involvement of women in your group helps give some perspective on what the families, tour groups, school groups and seniors want and expect from a visit to your place. We have to send these folks away from their visits with smiles on their faces and plans to come back again, and soon.

OK, time to get off the podium.

What has been said on here in regards to the "...doom and gloom we don't get enough attitude..." I thought this forum was designed to help inspire and encourage us to promote our passions. I don't see how bringing up "doom and gloom" can do that. I don't see how it is positive.

Fortunately when the "doom and gloom" discussions come up people tend to counter it. I think T.J.'s post was very well thought out and written.

I applaud the people, who instead of bemoaning the current status of the Industry are using what resources we have to promote the industry. No the Class 1's are giving as much as we think they should. No railroads aren't as visible as they once were, BUT they are visible in some very lucrative aspects of our world.

Take for instance a family trip to an amusement park like Cedar Point in Sandusky Ohio. We may say, "they don't do things the way they should" or "they are not historically correct." Guess what they are part of our conventional industry in an unconventional place. They show those who would not normally experience steam railroading what steam is about.

Another controversial topic here is Thomas the tank engine. People say "oh god that thing..." But guess what it is such a popular side of our industry to appeal to youngsters "who may be the next generation." Your organization does not even have to have a "Day out with Thomas" event to reap the benefits of Thomas. How many people have seen families come out with the children toting a miniature Thomas, Percy, or Gordon?

My point is that we must utilize the opportunities we currently have available than dwell negatively on what we don't have.

I agree that clannishness and egos are the biggest threat to our advocation. We indeed need to make sure we are inclusive of everyone that wants to take part in our endeavours. A good clue s to make people feel that they are overjoyed that you are there and willing to lend a hand.
Always be willing teah,and also be willing to learn. Listen instead of speaking. Be prepared to remove those from your midst who threaten the long term mission of your operation,and have a responsive Board that is not a rubber stamp for the "leader".
Make sure you do more to include women and minorities. take a look at your membership and ask yourself why aren't more involved? i have been a member of a few organizations and was the only minority member.