I agree which is why I made it a warning rather than locking the thread. But IMHO, the discussion had reached the point that opinions need to be made by a credible expert who is willing to state their qualifications or at least using a reference by Article, paragraph and line that allows those interested in looking it up do so on The Library of Congress' "Thomas-Legislative Information on the Internet"


http://thomas.loc.gov/


"gnufe's" willingness to share the response he receives from his congressman is very welcome as an "expert" opinion that will advance the discussion in a meaningful way.

Ed

The link in the original post gives contact information in Spain. Can someone here develop a short list of specs (builders numbers, construction dates, etc.) for the "important" engines: the Forney, ex-PRR(?), others rumored to be in Cuba? Perhaps our friends in Spain can help confirm or deny the status of these engines. That would be a start.

Wesley

And apart from the obvious (although heretofore officially unexplored) Coloradan interest in the 3 foters, I have heard of two ex-Southern Railway 2-6-0s that might find good homes in the southeast.

dave

Dave, it's really actually not that complicated--you can read all the regs at

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sanctions/t11cuba.pdf

Read this, and even if you're not a lawyer, I think you'll agree that there is no legal way for a US citizen to import these locomotives until the regulations change, even through a third country or intermediary. It really is pretty clear in my opinion.

Fine.

So does anybody see anything wrong with any of the following:

1) fronting the money for a Canadian, Brit, Spaniard, etc. to buy and hold one of these locos;

2) paying a deposit--even a token $1--on an ex-Cuban loco held by said Spanish company;

3) Setting up a trust, non-profit, etc. in a foreign, non-Cuba-hostile country to preserve said locos for future speculation, then donating to said trust;

4) Letting a Canadian/Brit/Japanese/etc. buy these "antiques" and sitting on them for whatever length of time until the "Cuban" heritage is no longer an issue for resale to America?

1, 2, and 3 all clearly violate the regulations as listed in the link I gave above--a quick read should assure you of that. Anyone is welcome to try it. I predict that if they do they will soon spend a lot of time and money fighting with the US Treasury Department.

Since No. 4 does not involve funds from US citizens its perfectly legal. Any citizen of any other country can buy whatever they want from Cuba thats consonant with their own nations' laws.

Again, folks, I direct you to calmly read the regs. If you see daylight in them that I do not, take it up with an export-import or trade lawyer and get an expert opinion. But I really don't think you need one--this is not really fuzzy, unclear or mysterious. You may disagree with the regs, you can lobby to have them overturned by Congress, but a person or organization games them at his, her or its own peril.

I agree with Erik's caveats - and believe the best course of action is to get some politician with a greater interest in preservation than expediency to sponsor legislation to include historic artifacts on the allowed list.

I am not clear on some other things, however. If I buy a candy bar made in Europe that has Cuban sugar as a component, have I broken the law?

If Cuba trades American built locomotives to Spain for Spanish goods, no US dollars pass through to Cuba, then are they Spanish goods to legally resell? What if Spain then trades them to England?

If only Australia were to sieze Cuba and run it as a theme park......

Perhaps not a clear as one might think - and the gray areas make me a bit uncomfortable.

dave

These are import restrictions, so if you buy it and eat it outside the US, you're fine. Import it into the US, and yes, you have violated the sanctions and Customs can seize your candy bar at the border.



No, they are not legal to resell into the United States. Goods (other than printed educaiton materials) in which Cuba had an interest at the time the regs went into effect are prohibited from import into the US. It's that simple. Doesn't matter how many times the object changes hands between Cuba and the US, or whether cash is involved or barter.

The regulations were written with the express purpose of banning all imports from Cuba except books, and in their current form as updated by the current administration, they were written not to have loopholes--and they don't.

I'm not a lawyer but I'll bet my hat that any trade lawyer you do consult will tell you the same. This is one of these cases where things really actually are as simple as they appear.

Well
After reading all the post both Legal and not-so-legal it seems this horse has been ridden all it can be.
At least that is what I think Unless someone wants to start a Grassroots Campaign to get the Export/Import rules for Cuba changed.
I am too busy to take up the torch myself so are there any Volunteers?

Andrew

Well
After reading all the post both Legal and not-so-legal it seems this horse has been ridden all it can be.
At least that is what I think Unless someone wants to start a Grassroots Campaign to get the Export/Import rules for Cuba changed.
I am too busy to take up the torch myself so are there any Volunteers?

Andreew

I think it would be best undertaken by an organization with a provable interest in a specific piece or two for an interpretive purpose. If that organization were in the public sector, or partnered with it, so much the better for political connections to get the ball rolling. If Cass wanted a Cuban Shay, for example, in your backyard........perhaps one of the state museums could try running it up the flagpole?

dave

Hi All,

First for the record my name is Stuart :-)

I've had a preliminary response from my Congressman. In his response, he did not mention any reason for not being able to import them. He said he would contact the FRA for their opinion and he would get back with me. As soon as I get another response, I'll let all of you know.

This is an interesting issue and controversial, but I belive it is something that needs to be looked into. Just my opinion.

Stuart