The fact that Steamtown cannot field an operating steam locomotive on many of its excursions is a clear problem. In there present handling of the situation, which appears from this Midwestern writer to be quite haphazard, they are missing an opportunity for a larger interpretative exhibit on the Steam-Diesel Transition period. Regionally, many diesel locomotives have already been restored (from locomotives of other railroads to represent those that have already been scrapped), most notably the A-B-A CNJ F3¡¯s of the Anthracite Railroad Historical Society (arhs.railfan.net), the A-A E-8¡¯s of the United Railway Historical Society (www.urhs.org), the many diesels of the Reading Company Technical and Historical Society (readingrailroad.org). Visit their websites ¨C you will see what I am talking about. Lest we forget the recently restored DL&W SC of the neighboring Delaware Lackawanna ¨C the first EMD locomotive!

Bringing these locomotives together at Steamtown, to power the excursions on days when steam is unavailable, and displaying them along Steamtown¡¯s collection would allow the recreation of a 1950¡¯s northeastern railroading. Something that few other museums can do. The meaningfulness of this exhibit would be further reinforced with exhibits that would discuss how the diesel changed railroad maintenance practices, expenses, and railroad culture. This would not detract from Steamtown's mission to interpret the steam era ¨C rather it would reinforce the importance of understanding and preserving it through illustrating how much railroading (and the life of the towns that depended on it) changed with the implementation of the diesel. Steamtown, through being part of the NPS, already has a leg-up over most railroad museums in regards to its access to museum display specialists.

In short the resources are already in place for this to happen. What is lacking is coordination, but that is another subject.

Tom



rrhistorian@hotmail.com

As much as I depise the loss of steam to the internal combustion locomotive, we are well into a fifth generation of Diesel locomotives, and we don't seem to be going back to steam real soon! I think it's fair to say that the classic Diesels, that is, those that "did in" steam are important relics of American railroading. Those that are historically restored form colorful and significant representations of the changeover. Having F's, E's, FA's, Baldwins, and FM's together in one location would be equally valuable to having a full but eclectic yard of steamers. Run the steam and display the variety of static Diesels, and you have a representation of 1950 - 60 railroading.
My two cents.
BTW, Bangor and Aroostook F-3, #49, remains sitting in the yard at Northern Maine Junction, serviceable, but stored without brake gear.


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

What a wonderful idea. Reading through Andrew Toppan's list of surviving E and F units gives one a real appreciation of how few the numbers of these graceful old engines there are in existance. I love steam, don't get me wrong but these are the engines I remember thrilled me as a child and that I still think of every time I hear the word "train".They may well have meant the demise of the steam but their place in history and as artifacts isn't even up for debate in my eyes.Every one that is scrapped is an irretrievable loss.What a grand idea to display them alonside the steam engines that served so well before the coming of diesel.They could now be partners,the diesel making money on runs while the steam engine is in for maintenance. Tourists and railfans wouldn't have to be disappointed over cancelled excursions and funds would not be lost. I'm sure there are many people like myself that would be thrilled to ride behind the locomotives they remember from childhood. All of this, of course, takes money but it is an idea with merit.

Just Train Crazy,

-Angie

Ladypardus@cs.com

There is a fine large diesel museum in California with more to preserve than they can handle - maybe they would allow some to find new homes for such a purpose?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Having read the outpouring of "fan mail" on RYPN regarding SNHS over the past few weeks and SPEAKING STRICTLY FOR MYSELF:

Ok, you've got an idea. Please take initiative to make it happen. Ideas that aren't practical are fantasies. We receive a lot of requests to fulfill fantasies. My personal test of a good idea is whether the holder can do more than idly propose but can actually bring resources to the table.

However, I will give you the cookbook

1.) Form a credible and responsible non-profit. Ensure that you are staffed by those with sufficient legal, operations and financial acumen expertise.

2.) Obtain financing to repair locomotive to current FRA standards, provide current blue card and move the unit.

3.) Provide research as to how display/operation of 1st generation diesels enhances understanding of general public about steam era operations. I suggest that you approach from the position that a part of the steam era was its end and you have archetypical examples of the culprits.

4.) After completing No. 3, enter into cooperative agreement with park. Please be advised, federal law prohibits subsidizing private ventures, so you will be required to provide own tools, blue flags, etc.

Also be advised that SNHS operation personnel undergo classrooom training, drug testing and field evaluations and that prior to becoming part of the crew, you will be required to demonstrate your qualifications on NORAC, operations and physical characteristics. If you wish to be an engineer, consult 49CFR Part 240. Until qualified or licensed, please understand we operate on an ever more busy railroad and only those who are qualified will operate.

Finally as somebody who has been involved for a few while, please let me provide some counsel regarding your idea

We have had 1st generation visiting equipment, including the "CNJ" units in 1993 and the "DLW" 807-808. For the most part, they did NOT enhance visitation or ridership in such away that would justify both initial and ongoing expenses of acquisition and operation. Your expenditures are not likely to produce a return.

Finally, if we are not able to attend to primary mission adequately enough to satisfy our critics and detractors, how will adding new and different responsibilities to those not being performed to your satisfaction constitute a "missed opportunity"

Don't get me wrong, we'd like more done. But we're realists, the days when Washington provided big operating subsidies are gone. The spike in energy prices hurt greatly as we are currently have the "core complex" opened year round.

In the interim, I would ask people to allow us to adjust and reconfigure. There's a lot of good, dedicated folks at SNHS and I consider it a privilege to be among their ranks.

If you want more steam, please contribute to the 3713 fund. Mr Frederickson, virtually a one man gang, is making steady progress.

You know the locomotives in the photo are to go to the museum. There 2 CNJ GP7s, PRR GP9 and a Baldwin switcher to go too.

> There is a fine large diesel museum in
> California with more to preserve than they
> can handle - maybe they would allow some to
> find new homes for such a purpose?

> Dave


lvrr@enter.net

> 4.) After completing No. 3, enter into
> cooperative agreement with park. Please be
> advised, federal law prohibits subsidizing
> private ventures, so you will be required to
> provide own tools, blue flags, etc.

Do all of these mentioned diesels have permenant homes? If they don't, could a NPS cooperative agreement ONLY provide shelter for the locomotives in return for thier use in special occasions and maintainence periods?

Smokebox.

Over.

smokebox1@home.com

Hey, I know you have too few people volunterring and that funding is always short. Never said it wasn't so. I just happened to suggest theme for a rail park, and never criticized the efforts of Steamtown.
Now how about throwing me a towel to dry off after the cold water soaking?


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

> I am inclined to say, nothing personal. Once again, I speak for myself.

But let me take an opportunity here to ask other readers to put themselves in our shoes for a minute.

Seriously, travel down "interchange" for a minute and look what's been written. We certainly have suffered the slings and arrows of ourageous fortune. If the response seemed disproportionate, understand it was the latest in a long barrage.

What bothers me as a volunteer, is that criticism is so easy to come by.

From the insiders view, let me tell you the following:

1.) There's no shortage of people willing to bring engines to SNHS, as long as the NPS pays for the moves, the maintenance and provides free bed and board for the engine. Similarly, there are million ideas for operations, exhibits and acquisitions offered with the same financing idea.

2.) Because this is a govt installation, people automatically assume the SNHS has the full faith and credit of the US treasury and can overcome the mechanical problems of running 80 year old, friction bearing engines @ mainline speed. Neither proposition is true.

3.) Other initiatives have been brought to the park. One was a group that was supposed to obtain funding and time to assist w/ the NKP 759. It initially seemed promising. Unfortunately, it didn't materialize.

3.) These things produce a lasting memory.

Certainly, we aren't perfect. We aren't even where we'd like to be. But to log on night after night and read diatribe after diatribe is just amazing. There will be changes, if for no other reason other than we'll have a new Superintendent. We have hope to see things improve, I hope people give things time.
I guess I just don't know what else to say, so I'll once again leave the floor to others.

> But let me take an opportunity here to ask
> other readers to put themselves in our shoes
> for a minute.

> Seriously, travel down
> "interchange" for a minute and
> look what's been written.

Warning, rant follows:

I am with the "volunteer" here. It's no secret I'm a Steamtown booster. I have some reservations about certain decisions that have been taken at Steamtown, but then again I have reservations about decisions made at a lot of other sites and museums as well. I am very impressed with the Steamtown permanent staff and volunteers; I was much less impressed with former Superintendant Terry Gess. I think both Terry and Steamtown might have been happier had they not been harnassed together, but what's done is done. Now thay can turn over a new page.

For what it's worth, I think Steamtown still outclasses nearly every other major railroad museum I have visited for the quality of its interpretation and exhibits for the general public. The park service may have some institutional and cultural hurdles that make running a railroad a challenge for them at times, but they are second to none in interpretation--and that's where a lot of the education is done.

Sometimes I wish that people would just lay off Steamtown until can put in place an exhibitry and interpretation program at their own sites of a quality proportionate to Steamtown's. Some who do are RRM of Pa, CSRM, and in a smaller scale the Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec and a few others. Show me that you care for your vistors as well as Steamtown cares for its on the education front, and I'll give you a respectful hearing. Otherwise, as Bennett Levin says, go curse the darkness.

OK, rant over.



eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

Comment re: visiting diesels did not produce sufficient additional attendance/revenue.

I would think this would have to be well advertised well in advance and takes time to draw people for something different.

Maybe visiting diesels on a regular schedule.
Say, every holiday weekend? That way you either check in advance to find out what will be onhand or you just go knowing that "something" unusual will be there to see. It will take time.



http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains
oldtimetrains@rrmail.com

Well said Erik.

I had my first opportunity to visit Steamtown last fall and came away impressed. I believe nearly every museum - regardless of size -can find ways to improve. And Steamtown is no exception. But Steamtown is much more than just a "train ride". Furthermore, there is still significant interpretive value in an excursion pulled by a diesel-electric locomotive. Especially if it's as well narrated as the excursion I experienced.

Now to the really controversial statement: over collecting is the greatest challenge facing museums in general and railway museums specifically. Steamtown is doing the right thing in releasing artifacts that do not fit into its scope of collection. How many railway museums have a collection that appears to be properly maintained with the resources it currently possesses?

> Warning, rant follows:

> I am with the "volunteer" here.
> It's no secret I'm a Steamtown booster. I
> have some reservations about certain
> decisions that have been taken at Steamtown,
> but then again I have reservations about
> decisions made at a lot of other sites and
> museums as well. I am very impressed with
> the Steamtown permanent staff and
> volunteers; I was much less impressed with
> former Superintendant Terry Gess. I think
> both Terry and Steamtown might have been
> happier had they not been harnassed
> together, but what's done is done. Now thay
> can turn over a new page.

> For what it's worth, I think Steamtown still
> outclasses nearly every other major railroad
> museum I have visited for the quality of its
> interpretation and exhibits for the general
> public. The park service may have some
> institutional and cultural hurdles that make
> running a railroad a challenge for them at
> times, but they are second to none in
> interpretation--and that's where a lot of
> the education is done.

> Sometimes I wish that people would just lay
> off Steamtown until can put in place an
> exhibitry and interpretation program at
> their own sites of a quality proportionate
> to Steamtown's. Some who do are RRM of Pa,
> CSRM, and in a smaller scale the Friends of
> the Cumbres and Toltec and a few others.
> Show me that you care for your vistors as
> well as Steamtown cares for its on the
> education front, and I'll give you a
> respectful hearing. Otherwise, as Bennett
> Levin says, go curse the darkness.

> OK, rant over.


richard.r.anderson@gte.net

I think the point that the Steamtown Volunteer was trying to make is that they don't have the budget right now for what they want to do, now poeple want them to spend more money on things that don't fit with there original purpose. It is called STEAMtown for a reason, I don't think the fact that they have no running steamers because their budget was spent on advertising for and bringing in a bunch of diesels would go over very well with most people who have a desire to go there.

Roger

> Comment re: visiting diesels did not produce
> sufficient additional attendance/revenue.

> I would think this would have to be well
> advertised well in advance and takes time to
> draw people for something different.

> Maybe visiting diesels on a regular
> schedule.
> Say, every holiday weekend? That way you
> either check in advance to find out what
> will be onhand or you just go knowing that
> "something" unusual will be there
> to see. It will take time.


Belpaire@aol.com

As a volunteer for the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum, a small regional railroad museum just south of Rochester, NY, I wanted to share an observation I have had on running vintage diesels.

Our normal operating plan with our partner museum, the New York Museum of Transportation, is to run track speeders with custom built trailer cars to carry people between our two museum complexes. Several years back, our operating department at the R&GV RR Museum decided that we would like to take out our "big toys" for a single weekend and let the public ride on our diesel engines. With
seven operating, first generation diesels and industrial locomotives, we thought this would be a huge attraction.

To date, the weekend has been very popular since it is "different" from our normal operations, but last year, I had an interesting observation. Unlike previous years, we decided to tack on a caboose to one of the diesels since locomotives are not the easiest thing to climb on for certain visitors. The operation had visitors come down via track car to an area where they would board the diesels. From where they got off their track car, they had the choice of riding the following running engines in order: FM H12-44 USA #1843, Alco S-4 NKP #79, Alco RS-1 Eastman Kodak Company #9, and then Alco RS-3m LV "Hammerhead" #211. The caboose, restored Erie C254, was tacked on to the LV211 and positioned between LV211 and EK9.

As engineer of EK#9, I watched the vast majority of the visitors walk right past a running FM(the only one in New York State), and three restored, running vintage Alcos to ride on the "big red caboose". They identified with the caboose and not the diesels; no matter how unique they were. Maybe there would more identification with a cab unit, but I still think the draw of the "big red caboose" could have overpowered even the nicest F-unit. (Anyone have a spare F-unit as we would love to roster one, and I would love to carry out the experiement?)

My point is that vintage diesels alone and even vintage diesels which people are allowed to ride on and in the cab are not necessarily enough to bring the visitors in. In my experience, if they do come just because the event is "different" that is not what most visitors are interested in once they do come out. Alone, they will bring in a few people, but we are now considering renaming our "Diesel Days" event to "Caboose Days". ;)

Just thought I would share my personal experience over the past several years of running vintage diesels for the public. I do not disagree that it is not a great thing to do for museums which are set up to do it, but the vintage diesels alone may not be enough of a hook to bring them in or to satisfy them if they do come out.

And as shameless plug, we will be having Diesel Days again this year on the weekend of August 18-19. Current plans have at least two of our Alcos(EK9/NKP79) and our FM running along with the Erie C254 and PC 18526 (if I can ever finish the paint job!).

Until later,
Chris
R&GV RR Museum

> Comment re: visiting diesels did not produce
> sufficient additional attendance/revenue.

> I would think this would have to be well
> advertised well in advance and takes time to
> draw people for something different.

> Maybe visiting diesels on a regular
> schedule.
> Say, every holiday weekend? That way you
> either check in advance to find out what
> will be onhand or you just go knowing that
> "something" unusual will be there
> to see. It will take time.


Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum
crhauf@frontiernet.net

> As a volunteer for the Rochester &
> Genesee Valley Railroad Museum, a small
> regional railroad museum just south of
> Rochester, NY, I wanted to share an
> observation I have had on running vintage
> diesels.

> Our normal operating plan with our partner
> museum, the New York Museum of
> Transportation, is to run track speeders
> with custom built trailer cars to carry
> people between our two museum complexes.
> Several years back, our operating department
> at the R&GV RR Museum decided that we
> would like to take out our "big
> toys" for a single weekend and let the
> public ride on our diesel engines. With
> seven operating, first generation diesels
> and industrial locomotives, we thought this
> would be a huge attraction.

> To date, the weekend has been very popular
> since it is "different" from our
> normal operations, but last year, I had an
> interesting observation. Unlike previous
> years, we decided to tack on a caboose to
> one of the diesels since locomotives are not
> the easiest thing to climb on for certain
> visitors. The operation had visitors come
> down via track car to an area where they
> would board the diesels. From where they got
> off their track car, they had the choice of
> riding the following running engines in
> order: FM H12-44 USA #1843, Alco S-4 NKP
> #79, Alco RS-1 Eastman Kodak Company #9, and
> then Alco RS-3m LV "Hammerhead"
> #211. The caboose, restored Erie C254, was
> tacked on to the LV211 and positioned
> between LV211 and EK9.

> As engineer of EK#9, I watched the vast
> majority of the visitors walk right past a
> running FM(the only one in New York State),
> and three restored, running vintage Alcos to
> ride on the "big red caboose".
> They identified with the caboose and not the
> diesels; no matter how unique they were.
> Maybe there would more identification with a
> cab unit, but I still think the draw of the
> "big red caboose" could have
> overpowered even the nicest F-unit. (Anyone
> have a spare F-unit as we would love to
> roster one, and I would love to carry out
> the experiement?)

> My point is that vintage diesels alone and
> even vintage diesels which people are
> allowed to ride on and in the cab are not
> necessarily enough to bring the visitors in.
> In my experience, if they do come just
> because the event is "different"
> that is not what most visitors are
> interested in once they do come out. Alone,
> they will bring in a few people, but we are
> now considering renaming our "Diesel
> Days" event to "Caboose
> Days". ;)

> Just thought I would share my personal
> experience over the past several years of
> running vintage diesels for the public. I do
> not disagree that it is not a great thing to
> do for museums which are set up to do it,
> but the vintage diesels alone may not be
> enough of a hook to bring them in or to
> satisfy them if they do come out.

> And as shameless plug, we will be having
> Diesel Days again this year on the weekend
> of August 18-19. Current plans have at least
> two of our Alcos(EK9/NKP79) and our FM
> running along with the Erie C254 and PC
> 18526 (if I can ever finish the paint job!).

> Until later,
> Chris
> R&GV RR Museum

Chris:

The ride at our museum is short. We go from our "depot" to the east end of our property, back past the depot to our shop building (where people detrain and a short shop tour is given) then back past the depot to the east end before returning to the depot. Since we presently do not have a passenger coach, our riders are always accomodated in our cabooses. Our regular car is a Bessemer & Lake Erie (ex-EJ&E) cupola caboose, but we also use a modified Erie Lackawanna bay window caboose and have just started running our EJ&E transfer caboose which has had a wheel chair lift installed to accomodate handicapped visitors.

Our diesels are vintage and historic; a 1941 built Whitcomb 44 ton center cab, a 1947 built ALCO S1 (Erie #310) and a 1952 built 95 ton GE end cab unit. Very few riders ask to ride the diesel (those that do are usually "railfan types.") Cabooses are a good vehicle to transport visitors. I believe we have to emphasize more just what cabooses were in the railroad scheme of things because more and more of our riders don't remember them in service.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, IN)

midlandblb@cs.com