I first visited the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry this spring with great anticipation of a great railroad collection. Much to my chagrin I was disappointed. I was in awe when I saw the 999 because I love the tall look of "late model" 4-4-0. It was a piece of machinery that was really meant to be seen in person, but I'd love to hear it bark. After that the backhead of the K4 was neat too, but I didn't find much to drool over. Replicas bore me since they have no history (although the replicas there are kinda old). The model train layout didn't really call me because I'm not a big fan of Santa Fe. I might be biased because ever since I was a kid I visited the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MI (adjacent to Greenfield Village where I fire their 4-4-0). Their rail section (w/o special effects) is modest since it is a museum of not only cars but americana. Of course they have the Allegheny 1601. Additionally they have a Rogers 4-4-0, B&LE 2-8-0. A former MCRR Atlantic (whose drivers and running gear look much like the C&EI 222 at MSI) was Relocated to the roundhouse in Greenfield Village where they have a 1897 Baldwin 4-4-0, a stocky Baldwin 0-6-0 and a Mason-bogie. Oh yeah they have two replicas in the museum, the De Witt Clinton and the Rocket (surprise). What I like about the collection is the time period it covers. From a Rogers to a Lima masterpiece. It's intersting to compare proportions and advancements in each piece of machinery. The Allegheny has large drivers, but not as tall as the Atlantic, but the B&LE consolidation is larger than the Atlantic, but the drivers are puny since it worked on coal drags. Finally, a monument to Henry Ford's strict attention to appearance the locomotives that were in the collection when he was around are all polished. The rods and valve gear of the Atlantic and Rogers are shiny and smooth. It's defintely not a park locomotive with painted over rust painted over 3 coats of enamel. Of course the other additions to the collection like the Allegheny and the consolidation aren't as meticulously kept but they remain indoors in a climate controlled environment. I've never seen the 1604 in Baltimore but I heard it spent much of its retirement is adverse conditions.
So what is it that really makes your local museum or historical society shine? Do you like the jazzy special effects or a quaint static display of a once proud locomotive? We all can't have humongous collections, but a few items can create a strong history lesson.

-chris

c8salmon@wmich.edu

The Museum of Science & Industry is not a railroad museum, just like the Smithsonian in Washington DC is not a railroad museum.

That said, I have always enjoyed my visits to the museum, mainly for the huge Santa Fe layout, and let me tell you, I am not a Santa Fe fan. That a major Class 1 railroad would donate $$$ to a model train display at a museum is reason enough to celebrate.

The other reason is (of course) the absolutely stunning display of the Burlington Route's Pioneer Zephyr.

If you are truly interested about seeing quantity, I humbly suggest you visit the Illinois RR Museum in Union. They have a little bit of every thing to please even the most diverse of railfans!

Regards,
Burlington John


cbqjohn@hotmail.com

> The Museum of Science & Industry is not
> a railroad museum, just like the Smithsonian
> in Washington DC is not a railroad museum.

> That said, I have always enjoyed my visits
> to the museum, mainly for the huge Santa Fe
> layout, and let me tell you, I am not a
> Santa Fe fan. That a major Class 1 railroad
> would donate $$$ to a model train display at
> a museum is reason enough to celebrate.

> The other reason is (of course) the
> absolutely stunning display of the
> Burlington Route's Pioneer Zephyr.

> If you are truly interested about seeing
> quantity, I humbly suggest you visit the
> Illinois RR Museum in Union. They have a
> little bit of every thing to please even the
> most diverse of railfans!

> Regards,
> Burlington John
Thanks for the kind words, John. Yeah, we do have a diverse (that's the polite term) collection at IRM, with over 400 pieces of rolling stock. One of the things that tells me we are doing OK is that I seem to get an equal mix of complaints, both from the "You're a midwest museum and shouldn't have a GG1/UP turbine/L&NE steamer etc., etc." and from the "why do you have so much stuff from the midwest if you are truly a national museum, you should get rid of most of the North Shore/CA&E/IT equipment" types. As far as I'm concerned, we're trying to build a collection that represents the diversity of railroading in the US, with a special emphasis on the Midwest (and if that sounds like I'm weaseling out, just remember that I'm a lawyer and that's what we do for a living...).

And going back to MSI--I wish we could have convinced them to do a full mechanical restoration of the Pioneer Zephyr and let us run it for a couple of years...well, at least they let us have ATSF 2903 (4-8-4) rather than dispose of it. And Dave Conrad's restoration of 999 is beautiful!

Kevinmccabe@avenew.com

I think the CMSI is a terrific collection, though not specifically dedicated to railroads. NYC 999 is a gorgeous locomotive and commands the hall in which it stands. My disappointment, and one can't fault the museum for this, is that a full K4 Pacific and a J3 Hudson should be standing side by side in that hall.
I have been trying to determine which locomotive the PRR cab and backhead came from, but it seems to be lost to history. Some careful paint removal on the cab sides might reveal the unknown number. A railfan recently wrote me, saying that the cab was actually off a G5, but he couldn't tell me where he got that information from, nor which G5 it was butchered off of.
The valve gear display from an anonymous Atlantic is another intriguing piece, but what a waste of the whole locomotive! Again, not a fault of the Museum.
To my mind, CMSI is one of the top Museums I've visited in the world. They have everything from a U-boat to Apollo 8. Railroad exhibits are also represented, but not the main focus of the building.
No apologies needed.

I have not been to the Museum of Science and Industry in 25 years, but having seen all the recent activity, I am anxious to go for a return visit. I remember 999 and ATSF 2903 in particular (the latter now at a good home at IRM).
I would like to see the Zephyr and the 999 now that so much work has been done to it. The 4-4-2 running gear came from a C&EI Atlantic. It's doubly tragic that the rest of the engine is gone, because not a single C&EI steam locomotive survived the early 50's diesel massacre.

As for IRM I was there ten years ago and I was highly impressed with everything I saw. It is truly a national museum with a strong mid-west emphasis, and that is just fine with me since I spent my formative years in Illinois. What started as a primarily electric museum has acquired a world-class diesel collection, and a very good representation of the last 50 years of steam often saving otherwise un-wanted park engines from scrap. I want to get back and see some of the recent acquisitions, but I shall have to plan on a full eight hours there.

kevingillespie@usa.net

> I think the CMSI is a terrific collection,
> though not specifically dedicated to
> railroads. NYC 999 is a gorgeous locomotive
> and commands the hall in which it stands. My
> disappointment, and one can't fault the
> museum for this, is that a full K4 Pacific
> and a J3 Hudson should be standing side by
> side in that hall.
> I have been trying to determine which
> locomotive the PRR cab and backhead came
> from, but it seems to be lost to history.
> Some careful paint removal on the cab sides
> might reveal the unknown number. A railfan
> recently wrote me, saying that the cab was
> actually off a G5, but he couldn't tell me
> where he got that information from, nor
> which G5 it was butchered off of.
> The valve gear display from an anonymous
> Atlantic is another intriguing piece, but
> what a waste of the whole locomotive! Again,
> not a fault of the Museum.
> To my mind, CMSI is one of the top Museums
> I've visited in the world. They have
> everything from a U-boat to Apollo 8.
> Railroad exhibits are also represented, but
> not the main focus of the building.
> No apologies needed.

As to the cab, I recall that this subject came up on this board not long ago, and Dave Conrad provided an answer. I just can't remember what it was (senior moments...). Dave, some help here?


Kevinmccabe@avenew.com

> Goodness, it would seem that more people are interested in that cab than the whole (mostly) locomotive at Steamtown.
However, for the third or fourth time: the MSI accession records state that it is a K-4 cab, no locomotive number mentioned. When I restored the cab several years ago (c. 1994 or 1995) I searched, but could find no clue as to what locomotive it came off of. Of course it didn't come off the 1361, I put that number on the cab just because it amused me to do so (also check out the names of the various inspectors on the cab cards, all IRM guys from the 1970s'). I don't know what transparencies they have illuminated in the front cab windows, I gave them a fresh set, taken by Russell Shurtleff at Strasburg R.R., but I don't know whether or not they were ever installed.
The 999 display turned out pretty well. If you have a flashlight, you can see that the locomotive and tender sit on "Dudley" rail, 90# I think. "Dudley" was used by NYC. At least one of the rails is turned the "wrong" way (worn side out). I wanted limestone ballast, but the display designer thought that it would be easier to glue (yes glue) down the bank run stone that was used. I wish too that 999 was lit better, but that's just me. It is amazing that it is finally inside the building. That would never had happened if not for the Boeing 727 being moved in (United Airlines paid to take down a couple of huge stone columns and walls and such).
Thanks for the kind words in re-the 999 restoration, I had a number of very dedicated and skilled people working with me on the project.
J.David

jdconrad@snet.net

I noticed J. David mentioned about the Pennsylvania K-4 at Steamtown. How is progress coming along on this beautiful unit, how long will it take for this unit to be operational, and what was the answer to the question of letting Steamtown run the K-4 for awhile? Also how many K-4's survived from the Pennsy? Thanks in advance.
Aaron B.


norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

For a complete progress report recently updated, see John Craft's Steam Central at http://www.steamcentral.com/tut-1361.shtml

As for a completion date, well, it depends on how much progress restoration director Jeff Miller, volunteer Wayne Laepple, and their handful of coworkers can make given the number of hands available--they are making great progress, but to use a football metaphor its in the nature of four yards and a cloud of dust--a slow, grinding but thorough job.

As for what happens when the engine is done, well, I think everyone is putting those decisions off until the restoration is closer to completion. It's not the first thing on the agenda right now.

Finally, only 2 K-4s survived-- 1361 presently at Steamtown, and another (number escapes me) now at Railraod Museum of Pennsylvania.

eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

I'm not sure many followers of this list realize how much like a new K4 it will be when finished. I hadn't understood the amount of work it required until I saw it last November. What a massive undertaking and all done to very high standards. Not many shops left where this kind of work can be done anymore with complete facilities in house.

No hurry - better take the time and do it well. Many mainline locomotives are ready and available with no place to go, watching the 15 year clock ticking by...............

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

The other PRR K4s to survive was 3750, currently in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, with a priceless collection of other steam and Diesel locomotives.
I will no doubt catch it in the neck for offering the opinion that while the K4s was stripped apart and being totally rebuilt at Steamtown, a third locomotive might have been built from scratch. Of course it would have taken MONEY and manpower. Everyone mourns the loss of steam in the U.S., but the British have the right idea of offering heritage restoration funds through a lottery system. With the way people in this country piddle away quarters, in gaming machine and dollars in lottery tickets, one might hope that preservation funding would strike a fire on a national trust basis in the states.

Suggestions?

How about a PRR T-1, a J1 2-10-4, or an NYC J-3 Hudson? And lord knows, we have the park locomotives and unrestored museum engines available.

Yes, I know that we also need places to extend the legs of those newly restored iron horses. Can't a guy just dream?

ok...bottom line...one of us needs to run for
President...then we can set a national manditory
steam program in motion...who wants to go first?

(cause it aint gonna' be me)

shootpix@hotmail.com