research question

scrmcurator · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 12:17 pm

I recently got a letter from a gentleman in Horry County, SC looking for information on a 4-8-0 that was delivered to the Rockton & Rion Ry. in the '30s. He included a photocopy of a picture of the locomotive, which I've added to my all-time roster of the R&R:http://206.74.77.9/sctrainstuff/history/rr_rocktonrion/roster.htmlThe engine obviously has a Belpaire firebox, which brings the PRR to mind, but doesn't necessarily mean it was built by or for the PRR (did they even have any Mastadons?). I very much doubt that she was ever used by the R&R, a Mastadon would be awfully big for that railroad. Anyone have any info on this engine? I don't have any data on the engine other than the fact that it came from the Atlantic Coast Lumber Company's Georgetown & Western RR. It doesn't appear to be listed in Tom Fetters' book on SC loggers.

BTW, I'm always interested in old photos of the R&R and its equipment.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 1:30 pm

Awaiting a flight home to my library, but I'm willing to wager the money in my wallet right now that before I land in BWI someone will come up with documentation of the N&W heritage of this loco....... I mean, c'mon, Belpaire and 4-8-0? N&W for certain.......

rjenkins · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 2:33 pm

I'll take your wager. To my knowlege, N&W only had three classes of 4-8-0, the M, M1, and M2 classes, none of which had Belpaire fireboxes. It's possible that there might have been an earlier class that I'm not aware of, but this one doesn't look like it could be a whole lot older than an M (introduced in 1906), so I would put my money on it NOT being of N&W heritage.Richard Jenkins

Taylor Rush · **Joined:** Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:32 pm **Posts:** 114

You're probably right, lettering style of the 238 on the cab certainly looks like N&W. Builders plate kinda looks like an ALCO, though it's hard to tell.Thanks, Taylor

Gary Gray · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 2:41 pm

Fork it over, Sandy. (I may consider beer in trade next time we cross paths....) The last N&W engines built with Belpaire fireboxes were the G1 2-8-0's in 1897. 4-8-0's didn't show up on the N&W roster until 1906, they were all built with extended wagon-top boilers. If I had to hazard a guess on this beast, I would say maybe Great Northern?

scottychaos · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 2:44 pm

Could be Great Northern,they had 4-8-0's with Belpaires:http://www.gngoat.org/gn_steam_10.jpghttp://www.gngoat.org/gn_steam_locomotives.htmScot

robertjohndavis · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am **Posts:** 2499

Hmmm... MoPac had Belpaire equipped 4-8-0's, too. GN or MoPac seems to be my best guess.

survivingworldsteam · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 3:02 pm

rjenkins wrote:

I'll take your wager. To my knowlege, N&W only had three classes of 4-8-0, the M, M1, and M2 classes, none of which had Belpaire fireboxes. It's possible that there might have been an earlier class that I'm not aware of, but this one doesn't look like it could be a whole lot older than an M (introduced in 1906), so I would put my money on it NOT being of N&W heritage.Richard Jenkins

Not mentioned yet, but the locomotive in the picture also has inside admission valves; neither the M Class locomotives nor any other candidates I know have had them.I agree it looks like a ALCO builders plate on the smokebox.-James Hefner Hebrews 10:20a Surviving World Steam Project

Danska · **Posted:** Mon May 23, 2005 3:30 pm

As an OLD Minnesota boy, that has the Great Northern look.I'd bet on GN.

robertjohndavis · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am **Posts:** 2499

http://www.trainweb.org/screamingeagle/other/bramson/mp1808_ghull.jpg

johnacraft · **Joined:** Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:53 pm **Posts:** 660

survivingworldsteam wrote:

the locomotive in the picture also has inside admission valves; neither the M Class locomotives nor any other candidates I know have had them.

Actually, N&W's M's were built with inside admission. The elbow steam pipes are a later modification.JAC

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 3:33 am

Dis I mention that my wallet only had $1.18 in it at the time?That won't even get you a Rolling Rock in most pubs, let alone a railroad-themed beer.............(^_^)

Dave Stephenson · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 7:07 am

It looks like it was based on an ex-IC 4-8-0, built by Brooks around 1899. See 100 Years of Steam Locomotives, Walter A. Lucas, pg 167. Same boiler/firebox configuration, inside valves. Even though the IC loco was never duplicated, it appears to be the source of inspiration for the loco pictured at the beginning of this thread.

scrmcurator · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2005 8:10 am

Replying to myself here, as I've gotten some more info offline. I've now updated my R&R roster page with info on the 230. It's sort of a stretch including the engine on the R&R's roster since I'm 99.9% positive that they never actually used her, but it seems she was on the property for a while and was apparently cut up there.http://206.74.77.9/sctrainstuff/history/rr_rocktonrion/roster.htmlNobody here had the right answer. The engine was ex-Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh #230, built by Brooks. Y'all had some interesting guesses, though. Any thoughts on why the R&R would have acquired her? FYI, they got the engine in 1932, which is the year the railroad was formally chartered as a common carrier (prior to that it was an industrial railroad).