Hi all;

Does anyone keep fairly accurate records of how much time is spent on restoration?

I read "50,000 hours" for an 0-6-0 switcher, "55,000 hours" for a 2-8-0; and "thousands" of hours for a small Vulcan 0-4-0.

Now, I know that machining something always takes me three to five times longer than I expected, but, how do groups estimate the amount of work needed?

Are there rules of thumb like "each boiler stay replaced takes on average 8 hours", or "new tires - approximately 30 hours per wheelset"?

Obviously, groups that restore under contract have an idea of the time and therefore costs (eg, 2816 out in Vancouver, BC, ot TVRM, or others). How are these factored?

I seem to remember reading about Frisco 1522 taking 40,000 hours (old RyLPN if that acronym is correct) which is less than what the small 0-6-0 switcher mentioned above took.

Any insights would be welcome.

Thanks;

John Stewart.



john.stewart@crc.ca

Time and money and other resources are interchangeable so no hard and fast rules apply. Other intangibles include experience - the first staybolt change you do will take much longer than the hundredth.

Some stays are accessible and some hidden behind frames so convenience and location are important too.

The biggest wild card in my experience is just how badly the subcontractors and suppliers are going to screw you. Never count on outsourced things getting done properly or on time.

Specifications for the job and tools available are more intangible factors.

These days, what was common 60 years ago are considered difficult and time consuming - tube jobs are thought of as extreme and heroic labor instead of just another everyday task in many of our shops. It is gratifying to see suppliers who are making the investment in resources to do these specialized jobs efficiently and in timely ways with the integrity to do the work at the contracted price and on time getting in to the industry.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Some stays are accessible and some hidden
> behind frames so convenience and location
> are important too.

> The biggest wild card in my experience is
> just how badly the subcontractors and
> suppliers are going to screw you. Never
> count on outsourced things getting done
> properly or on time.

All too true, Cheopes' Law comes into play often (no project will come in on time or within budget). The other wild card is the Discovery Factor, wherein you find that the (fill in the blank) is completely wasted when you thought that it was the part you could count on most. A firm belief in Murphy's Law is required in steam restoration. When bidding a job always use Scotty's Principal, always tell the captain a job will take twice as long as it should, then when you beat the deadline, you look like a miracle worker.

ironbartom@aol.com

Another factor to consider is the type of rebuild to be done. There is a wide spectrum in the depth and expense of the work that may be performed.

This may be predicated by the type of service the engine is expected to perform after the rebuild. Whether it needs to chuff back and forth once a year, or as in Tom's case, it needs to pound up an 8% grade several times a day, day in and day out.

Also, decisions are made based on time and money: Do you renew crown brasses now that may be not quite worn to the condemning limit, or do you put it together and count on doing more work after a short period of time?

We have all seen engines that have undergone long-term rebuilds, run for a few years, and then been down again for more work, so this obviously does happen at times, intentionally or not.

Expense wise, a very large factor is how much of the work you plan to job out to "experts". A great amount of excellent advice and information is available for FREE if you talk to the right people.

> I am not sure exactly what you are asking or why. The above responses are all very good but I thought I might add my 2 cents worth. My son and I have restored a small (40 ton) 0-4-0T. We still have a little work to do yet (painting, foot boards, cab windows and sight glasses) but we are to the point where we have passed the FRA hydro. Their next visit will be for the fire up after we have everything working. We have a few thoughts concerning your questions.

We do have literally 1000's of hours in the restoration. It will be completed in about 1 month short of 10 years.

The next one (we do have another one already) will take much less time for several reasons.
We know more about what we are doing.
We have the needed tools, well more than we had to start with, no one ever has enough tools.
We know more about where we can get needed items.
We know where we can get advice.
We now know that advice received from people that "know" should be looked at very carefully and if it doesn't seem right to us get more opinions.
We work on the engine for the fun of it not just to get it done.
Getting it done and running is the goal but the process of doing it is the enjoyable part.
We think that our committee of two is much eaiser to work in than a larger group. (We don't always agree ha ha!! Those of you who have worked with a son in his teens and earley twentys will know what I mean.)
I have some other thoughts but have to get to work. Working sure gets in the way of hobbies.

JCG



johncgra@locl.net

Hi John;

I have seen your web site; and was impressed with the low hour figure. I build 1:16 live steam models, and know how long a thousand hours takes, how much one can do in an hour, and how much time one can have with raising a family, etc.

Because of this; I am wary of anyone or any group who plan a restoration on the back of a napkin at the local coffee shop. Enthusiasm is great, but, 50,000 hours is a lot of enthusiasm.

I am also well aware of the fact that you need to plan for your eventual use of your locomotive. Just like the railways had to do - do you have a small, medium, or large locomotive?

There are some very impressive names that post to this board; people who have had success. The ones that have stopped shortly after getting started you do not hear about. What makes the successful people a success? Planning? Knowledge? Determination? Ego? Money? Probably all of these.

If you take the figure 50,000 hours, that is approximately 25 man-years. That is one heck of a lot of time. A failed project is a waste of precious commodities in the railroad preservation arena.

You asked: "I am not sure exactly what you are asking or why."

I now have the time to work on other railroads, and have seen locomotives restored by people. The more that I see, the more I understand that it is possible to do a restoration. What, why and with whoom I don't know; I'll discover that as I go along. I'm 41, have seen a few locomotives restored. The ones that I am most familiar with were restored by the Canadian science museum, either on site, or by contract. By travelling around I now understand that it is possible for a group of people, not a federal entity, to do excellent work.

Some of the questions that I am trying to formulate answers for are:

1) What is the eventual use for "this" restored locomotive? Something cute, beautiful, or whatever is a waste if it does not fit in with the eventual use.

2) Is it better to get a locomotive out of a park if it fits your goals 100%, or get hold of one that has been under shelter, even if the one under shelter is only, say 70% goal.

3) if you choose a locomotive, how, realistically, do you put an estimated completion date and cost?

4) Over the last year or so I have been reading all that I can on boiler repair, and have investigated becoming a coded welder. I still have no clue how long boiler work takes, though.

And so on!

You and your son have done impressive work; I have taken the liberty of putting a web page from you on this posting.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8738/
john.stewart@crc.ca

> 1) What is the eventual use for
> "this" restored locomotive?
> Something cute, beautiful, or whatever is a
> waste if it does not fit in with the
> eventual use.

> 2) Is it better to get a locomotive out of a
> park if it fits your goals 100%, or get hold
> of one that has been under shelter, even if
> the one under shelter is only, say 70% goal.

> 3) if you choose a locomotive, how,
> realistically, do you put an estimated
> completion date and cost?

> 4) Over the last year or so I have been
> reading all that I can on boiler repair, and
> have investigated becoming a coded welder. I
> still have no clue how long boiler work
> takes, though.

> And so on!

These are all very good questions and should be considered by anyone about to start out on a restoration. I should say that we didn't consider the answer to hardly any of them when we started if we had we would never gotten involved. Considering that the restoration is now all but complete I can say that I am glad that we didn't ask ourselves about what we were doing. In the last decade I have been to many museums, tourist railroads, etc. A large number of them, even major well known well funded museums, have an engine or two that is all torn apart and setting in the weeds. One can only guess that they embarked on a project that was much more than they could handle, became discouraged and quit. One advantage we have as the owner of the engine is that it is our time and money that is involved and it will be ours when it is done. This makes it much harder to walk away when things aren't going so good.
Our "plan" for the locomotive from the start has been, "If we can get it back together and running someone will be interested in it." At this time we have it leased to a group that has a larger operating engine and will be able to use our engine in their program. We think this arrangement will work out good for both of us. A plan like this obviously would not work for a committee or get any grant money, donations,etc. to do the restoration.
As for selecting an engine to work on in our case it was what was obtainable and what we thought was workable. This may be the case with any restoration project.
As for guessing, notice I said guessing, the time and cost I think it would be difficult to come up with real good numbers. If you did you would probably quit before you started. This is a lot of the reason for all of the dismantled engines that I mentioned above.
The boiler work on the engine will probably take the greatest amount of time if it is a smaller simple engine. You can do most all the work except welding which requires proper certification. The boiler shop we worked with was VERY helpful. {I believe thought anyone this crazy needs all the help they can get.} They did the welding and answered a lot of questions. As for how long it takes to do the boiler work, the more staybolts you change the faster you get, the more flues you change the faster you get, etc.
I don't know if this answered any of your questions or just created more. We think that what we have done has been very interesting, fun,dirty,heavy, exasperating,rewarding, etc.

JCG

johncgra@locl.net

In the
> last decade I have been to many museums,
> tourist railroads, etc. A large number of
> them, even major well known well funded
> museums, have an engine or two that is all
> torn apart and setting in the weeds. One can
> only guess that they embarked on a project
> that was much more than they could handle,
> became discouraged and quit.

In many cases, these "Engines in the Weeds" are equipment waiting shop time, money or space.The problem lies with the operating equipment, security and priorities. Little will be removed from a hulk on a storage track where the "collectors items" have been placed in storage. Locked shop or storage shed space is always at a premium.

ironbartom@aol.com