In a posting below, a writer attributed the recent departures of locomotives from Steamtown to xenophohobia. Mr. Levin responded asking for facts.

Here are the facts. Steamtown is a US museum, funded by the US with a mandate to interpret the steam era of the DL&W as part of the Anthracite Railroads as part of the US railroad system. Ever since Sam Donaldson, the Canadian engines issue has been a publicity problem. The 5288 and 2929 were NEVER going to see a fire in their firebox at Steamtown. The priority is the B&M 3713, NKP 759, etc.

IN a perfect world we would have a DLW Pocono, a LNE Decapod, A LV Wyoming, etc..(sigh)This will always be a problem since there's damn little left from the Anthracite RR's and Steamtown has but one engine, the DLW 565 and its missing a lot of parts. Everyone is aware of the effort to bring the DL&W 952 "home" and the war that caused. They tried to get the LNE 207, but couldn't work out a trade. This has been a part of a consistent and coherent effort. Unfortunately, there's been more debits than credits in the asset ledger.

Yes, there is plenty to disagree with at Steamtown. It has much of the visionless rigor that is attendent to any government endeavor.

Yet the reality is the divestiture of a variety of equipment is predicated on the plan and realism. Gone only are the CP 2929 and CN 5288, but the REPTON, several F units and plenty of rolling stock. Where's the "xenophobia" there?

As much as I admire the work of the late Nelson Blount, he collected anything he could get his hands on. He was assembling a tourist railroad, not a museum and probably gave no thought to curatorial focus.

Steamtown was conceived in the mid 80's and had a powerful patron in Rep McDade. This is a different time. The free storage at Tobyhanna apparently wasn't to be provided anymore. Engines that sit out unattended for 45 years become problematic when they have lead paint and asbestos lagging.

I personally think that with the 2816 in the care of the CP heritage program and operational, that shows the value of focusing the collection, having only what you can take care of, etc. If in 5 years the CP 2929 runs and TVRM runs the 5288, wouldn't that better than turning Steamtown into the land of Misfit Engines?

Consider the private efforts to restore the CNJ 113. There's a lot of good intentions but the engine sits outside in need of cover and money. One is left to wonder if it will simply rust away..That is what was happening to these Steamtown engines. Now they have a chance.

Mike,

I fully respect your opinions, but your post is very short on the facts.

First, the list of departed engines is much longer. Most obvious is CPR #2816 which is already under steam. There are many others which were rejected by the NPS as becoming part of the collection. These were auctioned on the eve of the NPS take over. Having lived in Scranton during these times, I got to see the dealings first hand.

Your "fact" about interpreting the DL&W and anthracite roads is not really true. Steamtown's curtorial policy for the last decade has focused the collection on the Northeastern US. Nothing wrong with that theory.

However, in deaccessing #5288 they removed from the collection a locomotive with a regular service history in Vermont.

The xenophobia I speak of is the one that says "it says Canadian on the tender, so we don't want it." Thus, you lose #5288 with a US pedigree, just like D-10 #1098 was lost in the '80's (of course, D-10's were commonly assigned to US routes of the CP).

These facts, which are part of the whole story of northeastern railroading are seeming lost in Scranton.

And, yes, you make a good point about engines finding good homes away from Steamtown. The crime is that Steamtown, with all the $$ spent, should BE THE BEST home for steam, yet the NPS has proven incapable of maintaining steam in a regualr manner... a manner which other railroads do year in and year out with far fewer resources.

Previous NPS management explained to me directly that they were running the Canadian locomotives to conserve the US engines. If that was the case, it never showed. At least 4 Canadian locomotives have operated since leving Steamtown in the past 15 years. Wouldn't it have been nice if one of them were restored and in the collection to have pulled the steam-less Fathers Day weekend excursions?

Steamtown's new management needs to do a top-down examination of why it costs them 4 to 5 times the amount of money to restore a locomotive than a private operator. They need to examine why the Strasburg, for example, can keep an entire fleet operation and constantly add to it, and pay for it off of ticket and gift revenue!!!!!

I am sorry to say, Mike, that you have provided the excuses, but the facts still stand. Steamtown is deaccessing equipment becuase it can't care for it. The is good museum policy, for sure. But the question is, for all the dollars spent, why can't they care for it?

If I am not mistaken, you are one of the fellows who won't use your real name here... you may be somewhat connected to Steamtown, but it sounds like not. I know many good men and women that work at the park, and there are some real stars on the NPS staff (I will not name them, but I can think of 5 off the top of my head who are vital), yet somewhere in the management structure, the same mistakes are made over and over again.

After a decade of building and planning, it is inexcusable for the management to have not figured out a way to keep at least one of their 3 engines available every weekend. You have to acknowledge the problem.

Strasburg, Chama, Durango, Orbisonia, TVRM, SV, WP&Y, WK&S, Georgetown Loop, etc... have all managed to keep going on private or volunteer labor, and run steam as advertised. When was the last time you heard someone went to Strasburg and there wasn't any steam to run? Get the picture?

Steamtown should have the best steam shop in the country. The pieces are there, and a ton of $$$ has been burned. The new management needs to look at why this is not happening, and make the change fast.

I think I have heard every excuse, Mike. Now, as a taxpayer and interested citizen, I want to hear about how it gets better.

Best regards,

Rob Davis

> In a posting below, a writer attributed the
> recent departures of locomotives from
> Steamtown to xenophohobia. Mr. Levin
> responded asking for facts.

> Here are the facts. Steamtown is a US
> museum, funded by the US with a mandate to
> interpret the steam era of the DL&W as
> part of the Anthracite Railroads as part of
> the US railroad system. Ever since Sam
> Donaldson, the Canadian engines issue has
> been a publicity problem. The 5288 and 2929
> were NEVER going to see a fire in their
> firebox at Steamtown. The priority is the
> B&M 3713, NKP 759, etc.

> IN a perfect world we would have a DLW
> Pocono, a LNE Decapod, A LV Wyoming,
> etc..(sigh)This will always be a problem
> since there's damn little left from the
> Anthracite RR's and Steamtown has but one
> engine, the DLW 565 and its missing a lot of
> parts. Everyone is aware of the effort to
> bring the DL&W 952 "home" and
> the war that caused. They tried to get the
> LNE 207, but couldn't work out a trade. This
> has been a part of a consistent and coherent
> effort. Unfortunately, there's been more
> debits than credits in the asset ledger.

> Yes, there is plenty to disagree with at
> Steamtown. It has much of the visionless
> rigor that is attendent to any government
> endeavor.

> Yet the reality is the divestiture of a
> variety of equipment is predicated on the
> plan and realism. Gone only are the CP 2929
> and CN 5288, but the REPTON, several F units
> and plenty of rolling stock. Where's the
> "xenophobia" there?

> As much as I admire the work of the late
> Nelson Blount, he collected anything he
> could get his hands on. He was assembling a
> tourist railroad, not a museum and probably
> gave no thought to curatorial focus.

> Steamtown was conceived in the mid 80's and
> had a powerful patron in Rep McDade. This is
> a different time. The free storage at
> Tobyhanna apparently wasn't to be provided
> anymore. Engines that sit out unattended for
> 45 years become problematic when they have
> lead paint and asbestos lagging.

> I personally think that with the 2816 in the
> care of the CP heritage program and
> operational, that shows the value of
> focusing the collection, having only what
> you can take care of, etc. If in 5 years the
> CP 2929 runs and TVRM runs the 5288,
> wouldn't that better than turning Steamtown
> into the land of Misfit Engines?

> Consider the private efforts to restore the
> CNJ 113. There's a lot of good intentions
> but the engine sits outside in need of cover
> and money. One is left to wonder if it will
> simply rust away..That is what was happening
> to these Steamtown engines. Now they have a
> chance.


inlinebob@aol.com

In following the various discussion boards over the past few years, I've noticed a sometime negative opinion towards the so-called "Wheel Arrangement Museums". Collections that have (or are still trying to get) all of the major types of steam locomotives--from tiny 0-4-0T's to large articulateds--without necessarily concerning themselves with the locomotive's former owner(s) in "geographic terms".

The late F. Nelson Blount was establishing a museum of steam (BTW, not just locomotives, but all forms of steam power) and in locating the major types of steam locomotives for representation he acquired the best examples of what was then still available from wherever he could locate them. He was creating a museum of steam locomotives, not a museum of the railroads they ran on. The name said it all, Steamtown. It wasn't the "Railroad Museum of New England". That was left for another generation, in another place and time, to pick up as THEIR focus in railway preservation.

Today in the US we have excellent--world class--railroad museums that are primarly focused on interpreting the history of the railroads in specific states or geographic regions... CA, NC, MD, PA, the New England region, the Tennessee Valley region, etc. Their PRIMARY focus is on the railroads themselves. You go to the RMoP at Strasburg to learn about the "Standard Railroad of the World", to learn about the Reading Company hauling coal, and to learn the importance that railroads played in logging the forests of PA. A noble mission in life.

I'm sure many will disagree, but in my eyes, it is no less noble of a mission for a particular museum to focus its primary interpreting on the machines themselves verses their past owners. In this case then IRM's ex-Lehigh & New England 0-6-0 207 is an example of a typical 0-6-0 switch engine verses being "a steam locomotive from a railroad in Pennsylvania". That 0-6-0 could have been from the SP, CNJ, or the B&M; the primary focus is still the same--it's on the machine vs. its past owner.

It's funny to think that most folks who believe in only regional museums would agree that RDG T-1 2124 "belongs" in Scranton due to its PA backround in hauling hoppers out of the not-too-distant Reading coalfields. Yet, if Blount's Steamtown had been the "Railroad Museum of New England" then "a steam locomotive from a railroad in Pennslvania" wouldn't have fit in. Today the '24 could have been thousands of miles from home instead of a few dozen.

It all boils down to your museum's mission statement. The mission of the present day Steamtown still seems to be a tad muddy. If they are primarly trying to interprete the history of the Lackawanna Railroad in Scranton, PA then only one steam locomotive--DL&W 2-6-0 565--truely "belongs" there. If they are primarly trying to interpete the history of what it was like to be in and around a typical railroad terminal during the steam era (with a mainline steam passenger train ride thrown in as icing on the cake), then ALL of the locomotives (present and past) can "belong" there. Why? The Scranton roundhouse, shops, and yard are here today to represent the hundreds of similar facilities that have disappeared from across this country, Canada, and the rest of the world. Places where 759, 3713, 790, 2317, 3254, and the others once called home are now gone or, at the very least, far removed from the days of thumping air pumps and whining turbogenerators.

Ya' know this past weekend when I was up at Steamtown for Rail Expo, it really didn't matter at all to me that there was a CN logo on the steam locomotive's tender as I stood on the roundhouse balcony and watched as 3254 came into her stall at the end of the day. Some folks aren't happy she's not somewhere in Canada and/or a certain Camelback 4-4-0 isn't in her place, but the visitors (myself included) seemed captivated in the unfolding scene as engineer Seth Corwin climbed down with his grip, as one of the trainmen went up to remove the flags, and a hostler wielded the grease gun to shoot the rods. Some things just you can't get from a building or yard full of "trains that belong where they are". IMO, there is plenty of room for BOTH types of museums/operations and neither is any less "proper" (I recall the word "mature" used in this context as well) than the other.

Usually I stay off the soapbox, please forgive the ramblings, and feel free to disagree!

Regards,
Jim Robinson



jrobinson@dataram.com

Mike, I respect your opinions. But when some inaccuracies pop up, I'd like to offer, IMHO, some corrections.

In response to some "interesting" posts, and not to re-hash some open wounds, I offer the following:

> Here are the facts. Steamtown is a US
> museum, funded by the US with a mandate to
> interpret the steam era of the DL&W as
> part of the Anthracite Railroads as part of
> the US railroad system.

Wow, a 1950's diesel servicing facility is hardly "interpreting" the steam era on the DL&W. Neither is the glass enclosed roundhouse. While they are very nice attractions, I would hope the history people at NPS know that the real steam era structures that serviced the locomotives are long gone. Mike, with all due respect, you are way off-base with this comment

Ever since Sam
> Donaldson, the Canadian engines issue has
> been a publicity problem. The 5288 and 2929
> were NEVER going to see a fire in their
> firebox at Steamtown. The priority is the
> B&M 3713, NKP 759, etc.

Way are these locomotives the priority if fact #1 as presented above is the "mandate" set by the Feds? One would logically conclude that the first steam locomotive candidate for restoration is the DL&W 565. It was owned and operated by the DL&W and is a representative of a "typical" anthracite burning locomotive. And, contrary to many reports, I believe could be made to run again. Yes, it would be a massive undertaking and take many years, but given the "status" placed on the quality of work performed by Steamtown, I would think it would be right up their alley. Remember the group in New Zealand that restored the Rogers 2-4-2 from a pile of rip-rap? How about Strasburg building the Lyon? And hell, right at home, the "un-rebuildable" K-4 is taking shape, albeit slowly. There are other, more local, locomotives that make more sense than 3717 or 759. What about Rahway Valley 15. She used to regularly haul anthracite to coal yards along the RV. And in nearby New Jersey.

> As much as I admire the work of the late
> Nelson Blount, he collected anything he
> could get his hands on. He was assembling a
> tourist railroad, not a museum and probably
> gave no thought to curatorial focus.
Way wrong on this one Mike. Mr Blount was saving what was available. And his "real" Steamtown had all sorts of steam powered machinery, not just standard gauge locomotives. If he had been able to start his collection, say even 5 years earlier, he might have been able to latch onto some PRR power, stored until 1959 at 46th Street roundhouse in Phila., or perhaps a Reading 2-10-2, saved for emergency use until 1956. Many of the articles written in the 1960's about Blount and Steamtown talk about missed opportunities or people just not wanting to sell (i.e. the Spence collection). It seems the Canadian railroads would sell Blount just about anything. And since he wanted steam, and the Canadian stuff was available, he bought it. Also, remember, the 3254 was NOT part of the Blount collection. It sat in Ashland,PA for more than 10 years before being sold to Sloan Cornell who returned the engine to service on the Gettysburg. That's how they got the infamous 1278!

> Consider the private efforts to restore the
> CNJ 113. There's a lot of good intentions
> but the engine sits outside in need of cover
> and money. One is left to wonder if it will
> simply rust away..

Another point to disagree on. If you would even do a modest amount of research, you would find that Project 113 is moving along. They have just finished an ultrasonic map of the 113's boiler and have a boiler consultant formulating a plan of attack. While it may not look like much, this group is moving in the right direction. They don't rush headfirst into the project. The teardown of the boiler was only done after much research and questioning of some of the top boiler people in the country. Also, check out their funding sources. I'll bet you'd be surprised. I understand an offer was made to take the 113 to Scranton but no really serious efforts were pushed on either side due to personality conflicts. And, they are moving to build a building to house the locomotive. A site has been picked and work is proceeding. However, not being blessed with the backing of the NPS, they will have an uphill battle to build even a modest building.

Interesting tidbit here about RV #15... there is evidence that the RV actually had her sent to Scranton back in the day for the DL&W to work on her at the shops, so she has the second best Steamtown pedigree after the DL&W #565.

Rob Davis

> What about Rahway Valley 15.
> She used to regularly haul anthracite to
> coal yards along the RV. And in nearby New
> Jersey.

inlinebob@aol.com

Another good point, HK Porter. Of the three engines Steamtown has relied on Scranton, only #2317 was part of the Blount collection.

> Also, remember, the 3254 was NOT part of the Blount collection.

inlinebob@aol.com

Jim,

Its just the Steamtown part of the NPS that thinks that way. At the maritime Park in San Francisco there is an English tug boat, that is the last of her type in the world. She was saved not because she and the museum want to tell the history of the Anchor Line of Newcastle England, but because she is the last of the original side lever engined tugs afloat anywhere. We had some maritime versions of Nelson Blount here and like him they looked beyond the obvious.

The "more people less technology" philosophy comes
from people who don't want to learn technology. It is easier to talk about the day that a Famous Person rode the train or ship than tell about how much coal was needed to make it go.

As always from my personal soap box. TM

ted_miles@NPS.gov

> Jim,

> Its just the Steamtown part of the NPS that
> thinks that way. At the maritime Park in San
> Francisco there is an English tug boat, that
> is the last of her type in the world. She
> was saved not because she and the museum
> want to tell the history of the Anchor Line
> of Newcastle England, but because she is the
> last of the original side lever engined tugs
> afloat anywhere. We had some maritime
> versions of Nelson Blount here and like him
> they looked beyond the obvious.

> The "more people less technology"
> philosophy comes
> from people who don't want to learn
> technology. It is easier to talk about the
> day that a Famous Person rode the train or
> ship than tell about how much coal was
> needed to make it go.

> As always from my personal soap box. TM

Alas, the visitors notice the heritage, too. The 2-8-2 says "Canadian National" on the tender in gold letters in a big red box. Last Sunday a visitor (hopefully a paid passenger) asked the engineer why they had a Canadian engine on the train.



Electric City Trolley Museum Associa

Alas, Phil, I hope the answer was "because both major Canadian railroads had mainline operations with in the United States, especially the northeast US during the steam era, which is the scope of our collection at the park. Heck, today the railroad just across the river from Steamntown is part of the Canadian Pacific railroad. Through out history Canadian trains have run into the United States, just as many US lines ran into Canada!"

Whadda ya think? Is telling the public the truth and teaching them something, too, a good idea?

Rob Davis

> Alas, the visitors notice the heritage, too.
> The 2-8-2 says "Canadian National"
> on the tender in gold letters in a big red
> box. Last Sunday a visitor (hopefully a paid
> passenger) asked the engineer why they had a
> Canadian engine on the train.


inlinebob@aol.com

> The glass enclosed roundhouse is not original. True.

However, the Scranton yard dates from 1851, One of the original antebellum pits was unearthed. The yard was in constant service for 130 years.
It is hardly a 1950's diesel servicing facility.

> However, the Scranton yard dates from 1851,
> One of the original antebellum pits was
> unearthed. The yard was in constant service
> for 130 years.
> It is hardly a 1950's diesel servicing
> facility.

True the yard did service steam for over 100 years. But how many original steam era structures are left at the Steamtown site? Not many. And the few bits and pieces that do remain hardly look like they did when steam was still in service (i.e. oilhouse that is now the bookstore). The backshop was converted in the 1950's to service the incoming diesels, with all but the most minor steam repairs moved over to the erecting shop. So, basically what you're left with IS a 1950's diesel servicing facility.

There are many ways to focus a collection, so who can say that locomotive type, whether it's wheel arrangement or anything else, is any better or worse that a focus on the railroads of a region?

Several things come to mind, though, as I read your post.

**Funding may be more difficult to get when you collect by type because local foundations, companies, and community leaders may say that your GN Northern has nothing to do with railroading history in Georgia.

**There has been a strong sentiment in the museum community that locomotives which ran in a certain area "belong" in museums in those areas. It is sometimes difficult for a museum that is trying to round out a collection of SAL or ACL equipment to hear that a museum in Montana has the last remaining piece and they are completely unwilling to trade it or sell it. In some respects, that is no different than removing Seminole artifacts from Florida and displaying them in Montana or removing Blackfeet artifacts from Montanta and displaying them in Vermont. It is a historically inaccurate thing to do.

**Fortunately, RYPN has a fairly balanced discussion about many subjects, but throughout the rail-oriented bulletin boards there continues to be a preoccupation with locomotives. From a historical perspective, this has about as much connection with the truth of railroading as it would be for World War II museums to pretend that the only thing worth collecting is tanks just because people think Patton was a neat guy and a good general. A well-balanced collection makes more sense to the general public and to those who we are asking for funding than a fanatical focus on motive power.

Malcolm



grinnellglacier@yahoo.com

The pits are great, as is Scranton's history, but what is there is a 1950's shop with a recreated roundhouse musuem. Nothing wrong with that, just that's what it is.

Rob

> However, the Scranton yard dates from 1851,
> One of the original antebellum pits was
> unearthed. The yard was in constant service
> for 130 years.
> It is hardly a 1950's diesel servicing
> facility.


inlinebob@aol.com