In several posts over the past week, several individuals have expressed derisive sentiments about posts made by others. While these sentiments have range from the humorous and non-specific (“Fighting Keybordists” and such) to outright telling someone to shut up – all of these comments have the effect of chilling discussion. All of us at one time or another have had to ask why things can’t be done differently or have had ideas on what should be done better – and it was through asking these questions and finding the right answers that we were able to increase our knowledge and progress in this field. Railroad preservation can only progress if more people become interested and involved at all levels and in all places (including cyberspace). This board has a tremendous potential to build connections between those experienced in the field and those who are developing their first interest, which can help bring forth new criticisms, ideas and perspectives to the field. However, this potential can only be developed to its fullest if everyone feels free to express their viewpoints within this board's guidelines. No one on this board should make someone else feel that they can’t express their perspective or ask a question here.Tom Cornillie

While I agree with you, Tom, and often say you are correct, sometimes those of us down in the trenches are too close to the problem. While you are struggling to fund work, and find parts, and fight the weather and elements, it is hard to give credibility to an unknown source who feels you should do things "better". Let us all appreciate the hard work of those who do the day to day struggle to save what we have and to add to the list of preserved railway equipment. Mostly, it is a thankless job fraught with empty wallets and skinned knuckles.Bob Kutella

Often a viewpoint that states that something should be done "better" is made because they don't understand why something is done the way it is now - and why hard work and long hours can't be avoided. I fully realize that the intial impluse (especially after a long days work) is tell someone to bug off than to provide the larger explanation. However - it is important to realize that indulging or resisting this impulse can make the difference in wheither someone remains in the field or chooses to spend his/her time someplace else.Tom Cornillie

Seems to me that both Tom and Bob make valid points. It certainly behooves all of us to encourage new players to join us(particularly young ones) in this quest to preserve/celebrate this railroad heritage we all love so passionetly,and an important part of that effort must be patience and a willingness to take the time to explain things that to many of us are second nature. I learned a long time ago that our industry has (and I guess always will) an entrenched tiny minority of "experts" that are ceaselessly critical, always vocal on how any given project could have been done better, and with VERY rare exception have no track record of personal accomplishments whatsoever. IMHO those that have taken risks and actually accomplished something have the right to call these guys for what they are! Ross Rowland

There is another aspect that figures in here. While many of us on this board are professionals or knowledgeable amateurs, many are not. It is some times hard (and yes I am speaking first person here) to tolerate someone insisting that a particular fact set is accurate when you have a milk crate full of documents next to your desk showing otherwise. Over on another board, if I was not fairly certain that I am dealing with someone who has a really serious emotional investment in an incorrect fact set I might have blown up at him. There are only so many times and so many ways that you can say, “I have the inventory from the court filings. They did not own that locomotive.” Or “The STB did not give them that railroad.” when you are up against official railfan knowledge. There is also probably no topic in railfandom which is more likely to cause latent Asberger’s syndrome to manifest itself than BIG STEAM. (That comment is not aimed at anybody I can think of, it just sometimes feels that way) And then as I am afraid I proved a while back, there are folks here who believe that if you say anything at all that might be taken as being at all negative about their particular pet interest you should have all of your buttons cut off and be drummed out of the Loyal League of Locomotive Lackeys. I also remember a Psychology Professor pointing out that in every society the functional definitions of knowledge and intelligence always seem to begin with the words “me and my friends”.Where am I going with this? Well this board consist entirely of humans who think they know everything and sometimes act like it. So what if there is a red stripe on side of the thing and ditch lights on the front. Despite everything that was done wrong and went wrong and may yet go wrong, they have a running T-1. I do not have a running T-1. I don’t even have a dead T-1. Everyone is free to express their feelings in a civilized manner and nobody is compelled to read any of this. If you really do not like something, beyond free expresion there are only two real options: 1) do not spend your money to ride behind it; or, 2) buy your own.GME)edited to correct a minor spelling error)

I would hope that the only reason for any one person to be hard headed or, unfortunatly, somtimes a bit to "straight forward" about there opinion on any given issue is because they have seen a mistake made somewhere else and wish for history to not repeat itself via the misfortune of another group, individual or company. I have personally had people argue with me face to face about how something should be done, was done or would be done if they were in charge. No matter what fact, history, standard practice, truth or logic say to be the proper course of action. The approach I take to unaffiliated individuals with such an attitude is simply this, smile and thank them for the opinion. Such people are only looking for a "fight", it is a form of validation. I know how frustrating it can be to have a situation where fact is not listened to....trust me. I have learned the best course to be simply letting it go so long as there is no real adverse effect. Another problem, one that causes enough frustration in an individual to lead them down the path of seeming a touch to "straight forward" is the attitude of those who think they know simply because they have the "toy". There are real reasons why certain things should not(everything can be done, wether or not it is good is another story)be done and it is the lack of knowledge or experience that causes an individual or individuals to not have an interest in listening. I have listened to stories, from several well respected individuals( both of whom have been working in this industry for longer than I have been alive....not to make you feel old;), of groups not wanting to listen to the advice they paid to get simply because it is entirely the opposite of what they wanted to hear. I give very much credit to all those involved in the return to service of the T-1 as well as any other locomotive. This post is not aimed at them in any way......simply commentary. And in closing, if someone from the T-1 group could contact me off line I would be most thankful.

Commenting on the post by jasonsobczynski, those of us in the industry who get asked to provide free assistance on equipment that we have spent many decades manufacturing and servicing sometimes do not get listened to when we try to help. I have had individuals in certain groups on several occasions argue and criticize me when the advice I provided in response to their request for help did not agree with what they wanted to hear. Usually these individuals do this in front of others so they can make themselves look authoritative by publicly disagreeing with you. In a number of instances I could have saved groups a lot of time and effort if they had been willing to listen, and in at least one case it could have saved enough money to go a long way toward putting the equipment under cover in its own building. In cases like these I just have to take the point of view that it is their equipment and they have the right to do whatever they want.

So, after all the discussion on the topic, it's still that everyone is free to his own opinion, no matter how right or wrong. Others are free to disagree, no matter how right or wrong........ Right?Mark D.

So long as the opinion is expressed in a way that is consistent with the RyPN Interchange Guidelines, yes.

I think everyones viewpoint can be useful. Be it in hard knowledge for future use or fodder for chat at break time. I look for input since I don't know everything. Sometimes I would love to meet the frustrating criticism about why something was done this way or that way with a volunteer application. Then the criticizing individual can join the organization to right what they see as wrong.

Folks,There is one way that might give opinions atated here more credit where it is due. That is give the name of the museum for which you work either as a volunteer or as paid staff.I have said that I work at the Western Railway Museum; but do not have any official status. I am one of the Indians not a Chief.I do believe that you have to have an organizational affiliation to be able to discuss most of what has ben posted here. And that said, Thank you all for answering a lot of my questions in a very knowledgeable mannor.Ted Miles

I agree that everyone's opinion should be listened to, but I think people should have a decent grasp of the facts before they express an opinion. Opinions too often turn in to "fact" when they become "popular opinion". The "facts" then become the basis for actions which sometimes turn out badly. Anyone speaking against "popular opinion" is discounted and at worst becomes a pariah.If our interest was in petunias, this might not be much of a problem. Our interest is in big stuff that has the potential for great mayhem. There are many people in our industry who have spent their lives in the legitimate quest for ways to prevent that mayhem so the toys would live to run another day. There are some people who focus only on playing with the toys and ignore the pitfalls. It is only because the stuff we play with was built as well as it was that we have survived to this day.Very few people realize how close we came to losing all the toys with the Gettysburg episode back in the '90s. Federal regulations are MINIMUM STANDARDS whose strictest enforcement cannot make up for lack of common sense, good judgement, experience/knowledge, and outright disregard. Even with good judgement, common sense etal, we are human and will make mistakes, not to mention the "s--- happens" clause.I am amused at people who say the United States government should have acted upon meager intelligence to prevent 911. Imagine the outcry on September 10th if every airline passenger was strip searched and all their sharp objects confiscated. The litigation would still be going on, the government would be branded with trying to set up a police state, and 911 might not have happened - but nobody would know.Those folks trying their best to keep our equipment running AND keep it safe are in the same position. If they prevent a disaster, few will know it and depending upon the actions necessary to ensure safety, those same folks may be vilified by people with no real knowledge of the facts.A boiler with a safety factor of 1.1 doesn't look any different than one with a safety factor of 4 when it is under steam. I shudder when I think of the many knowledgeable people who saw the 1.1 and were helpless to do anything or were trashed for trying because they disagreed with "popular opinion".Because we are people, the course to the safest and best end is seldom a straight line though it appears to those not involved that it should be. I will get off my soapbox by saying - know your facts and know who you are listening to before you fire a broadside.

I have to respectfully disagree with Ted's statement. While I have been involved in quite a few organizations and am still a member of a couple I am not active in any at this time. Over the last 5 years elder care has removed most of my chances to work anywhere. In fact I have not even seen a steam locomotive except in pictures in more than three years. My participation has been limited to arranging a few donations of material some of which came from my collection, the meager financial donations I could afford to make to a few worthy causes, and the small contributions I can make on forums like this. Considering the number of experts who use this forum I find I learn much more than I contribute. Since I started working on steam locomotives as a teenager I feel very fortunate to have been allowed to learn and do all the things I did at such a young age. The older folks that let me in the door worked hard to teach me what they knew and let me work on their equipment making many mistakes as I learned. I have always felt a responsibility to pass the knowlege along. That is what I try to do here. Just because I am not currently working with any organization does ot mean I have forgotten the little I have learned over the years. It also has done nothing to relieve the feeling of responsibility to pass any information I can along to another generation so when I become to old to work on steam myself there will be others to keep it going. It may be a selfish reason on my part but when I get to old to do this stuff I want to still be able to go see steam run or at least know it is still running. At this point of my life passing along my meager knowlege and opinions is the only way I have of doing that.John Bohon

As with other interests the members of our hobby/vocation vary widely as does the quality of their feedback. I have to disagree that everyone's point of view can be useful. Some are priceless and some are worthless and most are somewhere in between. The trick is identifying which are which. Also the person that makes an idiotic suggestion today may make a brilliant one tomorrow.This is where that PR spin comes into play. Every interaction with persons outside the group or even outside the active members is an opportunity. If not an opportunity with that individual, it may be with those overhearing your reply. Any active member of an organization should take care when speaking with visitors. There is no way of telling how far your words may travel. When the "useless" or even confrontational suggestions come, give a polite and simple reply and move on.In visiting other rail sites I have experienced a wide range of PR skills. Some have made me want to join (even if I can't afford it). Others make me never want to come back. Again, most were somewhere in between. It all goes to visitor relations wheter onsite on in a forum such as this one.At the same time I admit to having had the urge to tell some to shut the @#$% up until they know what they're talking about. I just try to remember it won't do any good and giving a civilized and courteous reply just may.

Hello all,First off, I appreciate the thoughtful course that this discussion took – it is one emblematic of the best qualities of this board. In looking over the responses, several common threads are apparent. First, there seems to be a small number of individuals that seem to be causing the majority of the irritation of people within the industry – and that they are disproportionately attracted to the issue of operating big steam. However, it seems that the frustration of dealing with this group has shaped how many respond to any and all criticism or questions. I contend that this has the real danger of both stifling discussion and the emergence of new ideas and the entrance of new individuals into the field. Imagine for a second if you were just becoming interested in the field and upon your first visit to the board you saw a number of questions or suggestions that had “put up or shut” flavored responses. What if you were a professional from another field in preservation? What would your impression of railroad preservation be? On the internet we don’t often know who is asking the questions or who is reading the responses. This is especially true of this board - which is first result in google searches for railroad or railway preservation. Perhaps everybody’s opinion isn’t important – but every person that we can get interested in the field has the potential to be. Tom Cornillie