The Heritage Lottery was mentioned up above, so let me tell you about it. Imagine a national lottery that is suporting four heritage areas. They are
Arts- little theatre groups, choral societies, fine arts etc. Next are Sports, not professional teams, but like Little League teams and they play soccor not baseball.

Historic preservation is also suppported in two areas. Static buildings such as museums and historic houses. The are funded in grants that provide for both restoration work and programs. everybody can apply for funding friom the small town museum to the british Museum.

And historic preservation of the sort most of us here are interested in. Things that move. In my area, they most of the funds for restoring the Tall Ship bark Glenlee in Glasgow, Scotland. She is a stationary museum ship.

Recently they gave the Cutty Sark, the last Clipper ship in London a $30 million pound grant to work in the ship and the dry dock in which she is displayed. They intend to build a museum under the ship.

Yes, the British think about culture and history and they are also very aware that their national business is tourists!

Good Luck to them

Ted Miles

From Australia we also look at the UK situation with a bit of envy. However, it is important to remember that their major steam heritage lines were all well established BEFORE the Lottery Fund started giving them a helping hand. From that I conclude that their awareness of history (including industrial archeology such as cannels, pumping stations ships & trains as well as castles and ancient battles) is the significant factor.

I have found that you can find the money if you have a plan. Without a plan, you can't find the money. And we don't have a plan and we are way too fragment to work together.

The problems that we are facing did not happen overnight, and the solutions to our problems will not be developed over night.

I have been told that first step an alcoholic needs to make is to admit that they have a problem. I submit that, that is our first step. We need to admit that the current model of railroad museums and tourist railroad development is not working.

I think that there is a pool of money out there that can be used for railroad heritage preservation. And the pool that I am thinking of is not government. I don’t mean to be coy, but the idea is still in a very nebulous state. I’m doing some research and trying to get my facts straight.

I guess what I’m curious about is, how much appetite is there for reinventing our industry? Or is the vast majority of the opinion, “well what the Brits do over there will never work over here because of (you pick a reason.)”

Or is the general consensus, “Yes we have a problem. We need to look to the Brits for inspiration and figure out how to make their program work here.”

Do I think we can get a national lottery? No, but I think there are other possibilities, if we use our imagination. Who knows, I may be crazy (there is a good chance of that) but why can’t we orchestrate a program to reinvent ourselves?

And what are we becoming? What’s the fastest growing sector of the US economy? Is it industry? Or is it service sector jobs?

I am kind of surprise that no one has yet to pick up on the information on the bottom of the original post.

Railway preservation is no longer a movement of dedicated railway enthusiasts; it is a big and growing industry and a key factor in tourism programmes in many areas.

I hate to use a buzzword but isn’t a paradigm shift? Do we look at ourselves this way?

I don't think we take ourselves seriously as an industry. That is, a business with a real economic impact. But then that type of thinking is controversial and often sets off heated discussions between "professional" museum thinkers and everyday collectors of stuff.

I think the paradigm shift has started. Witness new, more traditional display facilities for collections at Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, Western Railway Museum, Orange Empire and others. Hopefully an emphasis on education programs, paved parking lots and indoor plumbing will follow as needed at other museums in order to remain competitive.

I wait for the day that we assign a value for time and costs to restore each piece in a collection and plot out how long it will take to properly conserve, let alone restore everything we've "saved". Maybe then we'll finally realize we can't save it all. And that is when you'll see the real revolution in our industry.

Wesley

Hello All:

I have followed heritage railways in England for many years now.

Other than the typical British subject's attitude towards their history, there are a number of factors that significantly affected the ability of the heritage railways to prosper and grow.

First among these is the fact that the UK rail system is owned by HM Government.

Second is the "rationalizations" that were made by Dr. Beeching. When the UK rail system was reduced in scope by Beeching, many of the branch lines that had service removed did not have the physical plant of the line removed, unless there was the installation of some other public service such as a motorway which required the line's ROW. However, there were several areas in which the physical plant was removed, such as the GCR mainline north from London as the line was deemed "redundant.

Three, any private organization could readily purchase the line from HM Government. Generally, the branch lines could be purchased for scrap value. Just try to purchase a line from a railroad here in the US.

Four, although the organization operating the line had to obtain a charter from Parliament to operate, this was somewhat streamlined through the HES and Transport Ministries. Once the HES and Transport Ministries approved the application, the MP from the district in which the railway is located would ensure that the charter would be granted. The biggest advantage provided to the heritage railways was the provision of a Light Railway Charter. The Light Railway Charter allowed the use of coaches that did not meet current car standards for operations on the mainlines to operate on the branch line at reduced speeds, typically 25 MPH. This meant that wooden coaches using vacuum brakes could be used in paid service. Compare this to the US FRA requirements.

Five, the steam locomotives in Britain are substantially smaller than those here in America. Probably the largest steam locomotive in service in Britain is a 9F. The 9F is a 2-10-0 tender locomotive that is slightly smaller than a Frisco Decapod. This size difference is directly related to the cost of restoration, though a substantial investment is still required, it is substantially less than what is spent on locomotive restoration here in the US.

Six, the physical plant to operate and maintain steam locomotives was still in existence at the time that many of the heritage railways began. The heritage railways allowed this infrastructure to continue to exist as opposed to the situation here in the US where it is being rebuilt.

Seven, the saga of the Barry Scrapyard owes very much to the number of steam locomotives which survived in Britain. Compare the ability of the heritage railways to obtain a locomotive from Barry to that of the Lost Engines of Roanoke.

There are a number of other items which directly influence the success of heritage railways in the UK, but I believe that these are among the most significant.

For myself, I am planning another trip to England to shovel coal and breathe steam.

PKurilecz

The defining difference is that there is an examination of the consumption of railway heritage and a continual reexamination of its relationship to production. There is an active and ongoing dialogue between railway preservationists with the larger heritage preservation movement and the academic study of history. This dialogue has served to keep railway preservation relevant by bringing in new ideas and perspectives. Likewise, there is also an ongoing discussion within railway preservation on how to improve bring restoration and documentation techniques into conformity with standards accepted in the larger preservation community. As a result, railway preservation has gained credibility as an educational tool - and it is this credibility that is responsible for the continued salience of railway preservation in British society and allows it to successfully compete for government support.

This stands in contrast to US railway preservation efforts which remain insulated from each other, let alone the larger historic preservation movement, and academia. Where US preservation efforts turn to the shrinking and apathetic railfan community for support; diverse partnerships continue to bring new support from new sources.

Building partnerships with other areas of history and preservation and reviewing production techniques and standards is something that US preservationists can do now to raise the credibility railroad preservation – an important first step if the movement is to attract outside resources needed to survive and grow.

Tom Cornillie

Just in case it has not been mentioned yet.
There is another even bigger UK monthly Mag about Preservation:

www.steamrailway.co.uk

Rgds
JFA

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth as an British ex-Pat here in the USA! I believe many of the comments are correct about British vs US museums, but don't sell the US museums short! I have been active at the EBT in preservation (at the trolley museum and on EBT equipment) and have my own ex-EBT speeder. Whenever I take my speeder either back to the EBT or down to the ex-ET&WNC line in the Doe River Gorge (that we are restoring), I often get questions from non-railfan folk whenever I stop for gas or food. So my first comment is that there IS an interest in railroad related items in the general public.

Second, while the NN and the EBT have obvious advantages as far as preservation of historical equipment to show to the public, you don't need it to generate interest and even excitement! In Tennessee, where we are restoring part of the old ET&WNC through the Doe River Gorge, we have NO original equipment operating and only one piece (the old ET&WNC motor car #1 - in pieces!) on the property. Yes, we do have some of the prettiest scenery in the Eastern USA, but that is all. Yet the camp that owns the property recently began a program for the schools that explains the history of the railroads, and the ET&WNC in particular, to children.

I have had the privilege of operating our train on several such trips. It is exciting to watch the excitement of children (Pre-school through grade school) as they learn about railroading for the first time as they ride the train through the tunnels and along the cliff above the river. Keep in mind this "train" is certainly NOT "historic" in any stretch of the imagination. Our locomotive is a small 8-ton 1978 Plymouth industrial locomotive (that we rebuilt and painted in traditional ET&WNC colors). Our cars are two ex-6-Flags of Atlanta open cars that we also rebuilt (originally ex-D&RG cut-down boxcars we are told).

Even though we don't have the ambience of the EBT or the NN, or even Thomas visiting us, the excitement in the children is very tangible. Many of the teachers make comments about what a great time they had and how much they learned about railroading and the ET&WNC. We make do with what we have, and use it to our best advantage. I'll include the link to the camp's site with info on their "A Journey Through Time" Railroad History Field Trip.

Phil Raynes
http://www.doerivergorge.com/journey/

Points 1-3 are really the telling factor here. But most of all, it’s absolutely true that the Brits have a much stronger sense of history than we do here on this side of the pond. My other hobbies (military history) are also more strongly supported there as well. For example, the Royal Air Force has a “Heritage flight” of WW2 aircraft flown by active-duty RAF pilots. It’s a slot that has a lot of competition too. Could you imagine the USAF or Navy flying historical airplanes owned and paid for with tax dollars? Yeah. Right…
I’m also into old military vehicles, and the biggest show for this is in Beltring, in England. They have THOUSANDS of vehicles that show up: http://www.thewarandpeaceshow.com/

Txhiballer, you make a good point, about locos rotating between different railroads. It happens all the time in the UK. BUT, let's take a look at the distances involved-- thousands of miles; far greater than the distances in England. And the biggest engine operating there (9F) is about the size of SRC #90.

I saw a post from Rich Melvin on another site about NKP 765; he was responding to the possibility of 765 going to the Ohio Central for the NRHS convention. It's maybe, what? 200 miles? from Ft. Wayne to Dennison? Mr. Melvin responded with a $25,000-35,000 cost just for the actual railroad movement charges, plus additional charges that would take the move cost up in the 90-100K range.

We have a great little 20-mile railroad in Connecticut, good track, plenty scenic, close to civilization (yes, us New Yorkers are civilized), and we'd love to host a steam locomotive for a season or two. But the costs of geting it there and back home again.... as we say, "fugeddabout it".

One thing is the same in this country as in the UK: when locomotives are interchanged between museum operations, it frequently happens by truck. If you read any of the British preservation magazines, you will see photos of big Pacifics being trucked around.

I knew the UK was different the instant I arrived at the first British museum society I visited on my first trip over there in 1982. The sign-in board by which the volunteers marked in for the day had 180 names on it, with quite a few on hand on a spring weekday.

I believe the difference is cultural. The Brits are simply more likely than us to be conditioned to think that fixing and running old steam locomotives is cool, so they do more of it.

The results are conspicuously in evidence. On my three trips there, I have run across things like Gresley A4's under steam, Deltics (the Brit equivalent of a PA) cruising by, and steam excursions passing on adjacent tracks, without trying to find them. Several times we happened across 4-6-2's dismantled for restoration by the side of the road or tracks, just the way you would pass a Wal-Mart in this country.

About 1985 or 1986, I suggested to a "main line" group with which I was volunteering that consideration be given to acquiring a rake of coaches from a commuter agency that was re-equipping. The coaches were all identical and had been in long-distance sevice prior to going into commuter service so they had lavatories and decent seats. They had roller bearings and modern air brakes. I reasoned that a 10-car train of identical cars, plus a baggage car and snack car of the same heritage, would be perfect to trail behind the medium-sized fast passenger locomotive we were planning to field.

I suggested that we align ourselves with several other groups east of the Mississippi who had similar-sized locomotives and the same dreams of main line trips and rotate the cars between us, allowing say 6 or 8 weeks at four or five major cities. I thought that an annual "lottery" to determine when the train would be at which location as an equitable means to apportion its use.

In no uncertain terms, I was slapped down for suggesting that we could cooperate with anyone else in solving a mutual problem. There were a thousand reasons why it just wouldn't work, I was told. So I forgot about it and put my energies into the locomotive, for what was eventually a quixotic restoration, since no coaches were available to carry paying passengers. The coaches are long gone to Toyotas and razor blades, and the locomotive only ever operated in local service with a handful of raggedy-looking coaches. What might have been!

Looking at this differently, how are we doing in comparison to our colleagues across the pond on some sort of statistical basis? That is, steam locomotives per person?

If you look at the traction situation, we could all lament the lack of a presence of a National Tramway Museum (Crich) here in the States. But then we have the equivalent of several Crich collections spread across the country. Yes the impact is diminished compared to the singular efforts at Crich, but the quality of the presentations is rapidly catching up in the States with the help of TEA-21 funds and a more professional approach to fundraising. The same is probably true for the larger steam collections at B&O, RRMPa, CSRRM vs. York.

Unfortunately, mainline operations with big steam (NKP 765 and others) is another matter.

Wesley