A couple of quick questions does anyone no the status of the Dover Plains, that was sold a few years back that I was told went to Michigan ?

Although I have little knowledge of the TVRM, I was there once about 10 years ago, is the TVRM more of a operation short line tourist railroad ( running excursion trains ) then it is a actual static museum or sorts ? As an example the 12-1 Pullman mentioned, does that type of car "fit" into their operating plan, and compliment the operation, or is it another project for the next generation ?? Just curious more so then anything as it seems like they are more operationally minded, however perhaps thats changed over the last few years ( not that you can't have both operational and static displays )...

How did the Burlington "Doodle bug" in Denver go to an RV storage yard ??? I guess the question is why ???

Does anyone know about a ex Nickel Plate heavyweight platform car that went from Daytona Beach FL area to Jacksonville near the sports stadium ?? and what the plans are for it ?

I heard some time ago that SP business car "Pine Bluff" was for sale in California, anyone know the details and condition of this car ? Recent pictures don't look to bad.

Wasn't there a SP business car part of the equipment belonging to the GGRM ? Might it be the Oakland ??

Any efforts being put towards the ex CNJ Blue Comet obs car that made it down to Rio Grande NJ ?

Did the RCTH&S ( Reading Company Tech Society ) obtain that ex Reading diner/lounge (not sure ) that was in Philadelphia on Broad Street that was the closed restaurant known as the Steak and Bagel train ?

What ever became of the two Budd cars that used to operate as the American Zephyr ( 15 years ago or so ), which were Amtrak compatiable.

Any news on the round end CZ dome that was used as the station in Arizona ( Maricopa) just a guess for the town, I think it wa something like that ??

Any answers or comments as to the wareabouts and happenings would be interesting to know !

I would like to spin off a more focused discussion similar to the initial post on this thread. Are there any significantly historical cars stored outside and in danger of going bye-bye? By historical significance I mean did anything historically significant happen to/with/in those cars such as surviving a labor riot, or transporting a president, or world series winners, or has some other delightful historical yarn to tell? Perhaps from this list we could cull out the truly endangered gems of those dozens, perhaps hundreds languishing and compile a "10 most" list.

Railfans, one-of-a-kinders do not necessarily qualify solely for that reason unless they introduced some new significant technology.

Sure. Northwestern Pacific #3 and #4 (night train from San Francisco (San Rafael) to Eureka). Typical consist: RPO, baggage car(s), coach, Pullman (I recall Rock Bay or Rock Crag).

One of the exhibits in Western Railway Museum's new car house will be a typical Western Pacific steam passenger train (WP locomotive 94, a WP baggage car, WP coach, Pullman Circumnavigators Club, and WP lounge 653).

Only one of the ELDCPS cars is a heavyweight Pullman - EL diner 741. We are restoring it to reflect its appearance after it was "modernized" by the Erie in its Susquehanna, PA shops in 1950. The main changes were the large windows and the roof. The interior still retains its 1925 details.

Our Vice President personally bought an ex-CN 6-6-4 sleeper to stand in for one of the Erie's wartime "American" series cars. I too believe we should be demonstrating the open section sleeper. From a practical point of view I think sections in a daytime configuration can provide a nice level of seating, better than coach (and thus charging a premium), but not quite first class.




EL 741 with new roof complete and side sill work underway.
(Mike Steinberg photo)

Which, again, makes little sense, given the age of the much of the equipment, and the cost involved in getting up to "today's standards. Call me nuts, but I think there is a nitch there that could be fulfilled by a museum that could doing EXACTLY in the U.S. what CMRT is doing in Canada. Heck, I'd pay to go to see, say, a preserved 1950's-era California Zephyr trainset, or a 1940's/ 50's-era Super Chief.

TJG

I think many of us would TJ, but we are in the distinct minority. Would you pay to look at a roller coaster but not ride it? Operation is going to become more and more a necessary part of attracting visitors to the sort of museum that must exist to provide adequate resources to responsibly care for a sizeable collection of expensive to conserve and maintain self destructive artifacts like railroad cars. Without offering an experience in tangible, memorable, sensory-affecting ways, mom and dad and 2.7 children will not drive their SUVs with fake wood sides into our parking lots unless there is nothing else for them to do (like Thomas?).

Perhaps offering some virtual operation - like the Pullman at CRRM that rocks and has sound and lighting to impersonalt riding the train in real mainline service, can be done better and more often. SERM is offering a valentines dinner in the diner standing still - how much more memorable would it be if the train artifically ran down the mainline while customers were dining? This also allows us to interpret real mainline speeds without having to maintain miles of track to 80 MPH standards.

dave

If an emphasis on operating equipment is so important in our eyes, please explain the huge attendance at the Smithsonian's two museum facilities in Washington, DC devoted to air and space. Lots of large objects are properly conserved and displayed indoors, in no real context to their working environment. And you can't ride in them, either.

Wesley

I would argue that there are two reasons. First, the Smithsonian's collection of historic aircraft is quite likely the best in the nation. The sheer historical and cultural significance of some of their aircraft - the Enola Gay, the Wright Flyer - arguably surpasses that of many railroad museum's entire collections. Second, the Smithsonian is unique in that it is essentially the "National Museum" of the United States. Going to the Smithsonian when you're in Washington is something of a must-see, almost like visiting the Capitol or the White House. No railway museum is ever quite going to rival that intangible quality the Smithsonian alone possesses as "the" museum. Rather, the typical railway museum must vie for the public's attention - and money - with the likes of the local Six Flags, movie theater, and miniature golf course. Operation is important to holding people's interest. Just my two cents, of course.

Could it be that the Smithsonian benefits from Washington DC being the number one tourist destination in the US?

Even if we had the Smithsonian's displays in Perris California, we would not attract the current SMithsonian numbers.

Seems to me that the attendance figures across the nation at our railroad centered institutions speak volumnes about the importance of having some form of "live" entertainment as part of the visitation experience. Those railroad themed attractions that include a regularly scheduled ride as part of their experience(or immediately next door as in the case of the RRMofPa.), all the better if it's steam powered- clearly out draw their static brethern by a mile!!
In an ever more frantically paced society that is bombarded with a myriad of entertainment choices that allow live interactive participation- I'm afraid the appeal of the static museum (regardless of theme) will continue to become less and less competitive for the public's discretionary entertainment dollar. Just look at how the static rr museums struggle to stay afloat. The tourist rr shortlines have learned that their best revenue generators are special themed events(Thomas, Polar, Santa, Halloween etc.) where the train ride is the medium that allows the customer to be part of a bigger "adventure".
Seems to me that the future certainly belongs to those who are able to put as much "life" into the subject as possible. As the late Walt Disney shared with me when he was helping us with ideas for the American Freedom Train," if they can be taught as they're being entertained,that's the ideal!'.
I'd agree with him 100%!
Ross Rowland

Clearly the people who manage railway museums think some form of actual train operations is important. Of the 31 Railway Museums in the United States with 50 or more pieces of equipment, 30 offer "rides" on full-size railway equipment on a regular basis (or have a first class tourist railway across the street!). The last holdouts were the B&O Museum, now operating daily all year, and the Museum Transporation, which now offers streeetcar rides. The only one I know of that does not operate regualrly for the public is the Galveston Island Railway Museum.

The word (or term) I've heard to discribe this concept is "Edu-tainment."
n. To combime education and entertainment.

In defining eligibility to the National Register of Historic Places (for which railroad equipment is elgible) there are 4 areas of significance:

The quality of significance in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture is present in districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that possess integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association, and:

A. That are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; or

B. That are associated with the lives of persons significant in our past; or

C. That embody the distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction; or

D. That have yielded or may be likely to yield, information important in prehistory or history.

This is taken directly from
http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/listing.htm

One area of significance does not take precedence over another. Thus, if a Pullman sleeper or a day coach was listed – it would have the same official significance as other buildings/things.

Most cars would fall under the category of being objects that were once very common, played a vital role in everyday life, and are now very rare. It is hard to tie revenue service cars to any one person – indeed think of how many notable persons have traveled aboard the concords or in the first class sections of 747’s. While we generally can’t talk about a link to any one person – we can talk about the significance of a particular train, the service it provided to a region, and how that car played in it.

However, there are a few other areas that we should investigate. Who were the industrial designers that designed trains – there are several PRR cars that have significant elements designed by Raymond Lowey and a smaller number of NYC cars designed by Henry Dreyfus. The story of Budd’s industrial design remains largely unexplored – which is incredible considering how iconic their cars remain in the history of US transportation.

The other major topic is segregation. While it is unpleasant – it is a topic in which there is growing interest and where passenger trains were the front line of this issue. There is a tremendous potential for railroad museums everywhere to tell this story – as there is a nationwide interest in this topic.

Tom Cornillie

This discussion of passenger car preservation, like prior discussions of this issue here, seems to be held hostage to circular logic that goes something like this:

1) Statement: We have passenger cars that are endangered

2) Passenger cars are tremendously important and have a great deal of potential

3) We (the movement) don’t have the resources to restore these cars to operating condition

4) People don’t like non-operating museums
(go back to 1)


We (we as in me, you and others involved in railroad preservation) need to break free from this circular argument – as the only thing that it preserves is the existing business model – the same business model that has failed to preserve the cars we have saved over the past 30+ years.

Its not about having too many cars - its the business model that does (or does not) utilize them properly.

Instead, the goal should be to preserve cars and we should find a way to reach it, even if that means abandoning how we do things now and have done things in the past. There has been change in this area – the Kansas City Science Museum paid over $600,000 for their set of passenger cars that they have since restored externally – but have kept otherwise intact (they required rather little work). The Canadian Museum of Rail Travel is approaching its 20th year of preserving passenger cars. The Milwaukee Museum of Art hosted a display of the Skytop dome car from the Milwaukee 261 group in conjunction with a larger exhibit pertaining to industrial design. All of these efforts have involved support from the arts, education and a variety of government sources – sources that we have largely ignored. However, the fact that these efforts have been able to attract this funding shows that there is a growing recognition of the importance of railroad history and passenger trains in particular.

To a large degree, we are isolated from historic preservation and museums. Indeed, I think it is a safe bet that no one who is has posted to this thread has a degree in historic preservation, museum studies, or non-profit management. This is not a criticism – but recognition of the fact that even if one has a degree in these fields there are virtually no full-time job opportunities in US railroad preservation. Moreover, in the “old” way of doing business a degree probably wouldn’t help unless you knew the secret handshake and/or were willing to spend as much time breathing lead dust as in writing grant applications or seeking out partnerships. After all, grinding old paint is “doing” while writing grant applications is “talking” – right? However, we can all learn from the lessons of others in this wider field instead working in isolation and trying to reinvent the wheel ourselves. We also have a great potential to contribute new ideas to this field and to develop new partnerships.

If we want to break free from the circular logic and move forward then we all (me, you, everbody) have some bootstrapping to do. Fortunately, we have a great resource in RYPN that provides us with an unparalleled place to collaborate and move forward.

Tom Cornillie

I would disagree with the statement that people don't like non-operating Museums. I think that railfans don't like static museums.

I raised the example of the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum to illustrate that a static museum can exhibit large, non-operating transportation objects outside of their operating context and be successful. Yes, they enjoy the luxury of the Smithsonian brand, but still the objects on display don't go anywhere, shake, or vibrate. The Annex at Dulles Airport is not readily convenient to anything. It is almost 30 miles outside of the City, requires a drive on the toll road and a rather expensive parking fee. I would argue it is almost as remote as many of our own locations.

Folks like to sneer a bit at the idea of "edu-tainment". But the concept proves that we have to offer the casual, non-railfan visitor more than a line-up of equipment, often poorly preserved outdoors, and often poorly interpreted with information that is technical and full of jargon.

I had a mentor drill me on the concept of "why" when interpreting any object in our collections. Okay, it is a PCC car. Why is that important? Well it was designed by private industry. Why is that important? And you begin to drill down beyond the usual 44 feet long, 4 motors of x hp by either GE or Westinghouse, built by Pullman or St. Louis in 19xx, 54 seats, etc. (yawn). When we can apply the concept of "why" we can begin to open a door to the casual visitor that extends the length of their visit and expands his/her horizons.

And don't get me started on parking lots and poor visitor facilities (bathrooms).

Wesley