397 ft radius =
14.5 degree curve which =
the exact radius of a standard gauge 6-1/2 turnout.

Assuming all this information is indeed accurate, I absolutely HAVE to ask what someone was snorting/smoking/drinking when they thought a Reading T1 could routinely tackle that curve.

Comments have been made about the Reading's 2.6% Locust Summit Grade and 3.3% grades on some of their "main lines"; I just pulled out the photos, and the 2.6% Locust Summit grade was a more-or-less ramrod-straight inclined plane, worked with T1's fore and aft on freight!

Mr, Rowland, are you inclined to tell us how sharp the curves were on Sand Patch and Seventeen-Mile Grade? (Actually, don't bother; I can look them up myself.) And in those cases, there was a nice chance to gain speed before hitting the bottom of the grade, even with the photo stop south of Hyndman..............

Mr. Mitchell asks an interesting question, the answer to which I did not commit to memory. If you can dig it up I'd appreciate your posting same. What I do know is that we took a 13 car train plus an aux. tender up 17 mile grade(twice I think??) and it was the hardest pull I've ever personally run a steam engine. We spent a lot of the grade doing 10-12 mph with her on the feather,with booster,sanders and rail washers going full bore!!! I believe our trailing tonnage totaled 815 tons. She never slipped a wheel and there was never any doubt that she'd make it once she "settled down" to her sweet speed. I believe we had dry rail both times. As for Sand Patch we took the whole Chessie Steam Special consist over that grade a number of times(23 cars about 1395 trailing tons) again with all systems (sanders, booster&rail washers) to the max. and of course full boiler pressure(240 psi). I would guess that the sharpest curve(s) on 17 mile were somewhere around 11 degrees and the sharpest on Sand Patch about 9 degrees???
The sharp curve at the base of the 3.5% grade out of Tacoma certainly makes that a harder challenge but it only really means that in that situation she'll actually climb to her "sweet speed" as she gets into the heart of the pull rather than decline to it which she would where getting a run at the base of the hill was possible.
As stated before the 2100 has yet to tackle the Tacoma hill with " all systems a go" Ross Rowland

My question is how are you getting your distance? I am sure the railroad must have track charts and I would be going by those.

I say BRAVO to Mr. Payne and the 2100 team. They might be in the middle of a learning curve but they are working at it. Is anyone else out there making a try at putting a 4-8-4 into excursion service in 2006. They have jumped through so many hoops to get this far and now as they get things worked out people seem ready to kick them as they get firm footing.

Beloved iron horses like 819, 2102, 614, and 1522 are all sitting cold with no operation in sight and Mr. Payne has his show on the road. BRAVO!!!

With all due respect, Brother Gears, I disagree.

Part of the reason we are currently in a steam "desert" is because of certain programs which, either by misfortune or by poor planning/judgement, fell flat on their faces. Wanna know why no one on NS will let steam on the Horseshoe Curve? Because the last three times steam was on the Curve, in four-track days, two of them created nasty delays--the Freedom Train was posed for photos and then couldn't restart, and 2102/4070 in 1977 had 4070 disassemble its valve gear en route up.

I have generally refrained from commenting on the Tacoma operation/proposal because I haven't seen it myself and I really do not know the particulars involved. But just to give an example that both Gears and I can personally relate to, if someone proposed running a 4-8-4 on the Wilmington & Western with a train of sealed-window ex-C&NW bilevels (assuming they would fit under the overpasses, etc.), I believe we'd both say the planner was deluded at best and insane at worst--trestles, track condition, and curves would all make this proposal unfeasible, to say nothing of the sealed windows largely negating the "steam" experience. Heck, even *competent* proposals, such as the Blue Mountain & Reading, haven't managed to stay around.

I have no idea whether the nay-sayers regarding 2100/Tacoma have a point or not. I haven't seen the Tacoma line; I haven't seen 2100's capabilities or lack thereof in her new configuration; and I don't know the Tacoma business/tourist environment. But if--and I say IF--someone is proposing a "mainline steam" business plan that stands little or no chance of success either physically or logistically, then I have no problem with heaping criticism upon the plan. I certainly don't want to tell Payne and Co. which bottomless hole to shovel their money into--after all, it's their money--but a shoddy operator/program hurts us all, unfairly or not.

That curve is at the base of the hill. In fact, about 1/3 of it is actually on a downgrade. Yes, it's difficult, but the real tough stuff comes later on up the hill, in the area of S curves.

I think that 2100 could pull the hill under the right conditions, without diesel helper. I'm certain she can do it with one, she proved it the other day, and did it from a standing start on the grade. So this certainly is possible.

Now whether folks will pay $50 each to ride it is a different question, but technically it does seem feasible...

As far as damaging credibility, I certainly agree, and know that the MRSR crew is hoping he doesn't cause any problems that would prevent future steam operation on this line.

The F40PH operating alone without the steam locomotive can start the six car train anywhere on the grade and only requires about 12% adhesion to do it.

In typical 18% adhesion conditions operating with the canteen, the diesel, and six coaches the 2100 should only have to generate about 24,000# TE (35% of the nominal 68,000 rating without booster) to counter the grade resistance if the F40PH is loading properly. The diesel can do the rest.

I hope Mr. mitchell will be able to tell us what the max. curvatures are on both 17 mile and Sand Patch. I believe Mr. Mitchell makes an extremely valid and critically important point regarding the importance of mounting a thoroughly professional operation when on someone elses railroad with steam as if done poorly there's no doubt that it will give the legions of naysayers(at the decision making level of the railroads) that much more ammo with which to say NO! Diplomacy makes me limit my remarks to saying again that 2100 has yet to be given a fair test of its true capabilities out of Tacoma- not the fault of the machine.
The business feasibility of that set-up is another matter entirely. I too would seriously question whether a sufficient number of the general public(from which comes the vast majority of customers) will be willing to pay $50 for a 22 mile round trip through urban back yards(and junk cars) that takes 2.5 hours in sealed window unremarkably decorated commuter coaches??? Highly unlikely in my judgement. However as posted above if that's how Mr. Payne wants to use his money-more power to him! Let's just hope they get their operating act together before any more damage(both mechanical and political) is done.
I must answer Mr. Mitchells comment on the American Freedom Trains Horseshoe Curve experience. We stopped on the curve at the specific request of Mr. J.J.MacDonald,Sr.V.P.-General Motors Corp.(ret.) so that he could take photos of the train/engine with his family. Mr. MacDonald is a life-long steam fan(and the principle reason I was able to get GM as one of 4 $1million dollar sponsors) and had a life long dream of someday having his photo taken on the curve with steam. When the Chairman of GM asked the Ch. of Conrail if we could accomodate Mr. MacDonald the answer quickly came back-"why of course,we'd be delighted!!". Another life example of "It ain't what you know........... Knowing the 2101 would probably not be able to restart the AFT on that grade without a lot of rough slack taking(we did try once without slack and it didn't work) we had 2 diesel helpers just ahead of us by plan and they quickly dropped back/coupled up and took us away. Mr. Mitchells remarks about the other Horseshoe incident are both accurate and instructive.
Ross Rowland

I whole heartedly disagree with others who feel the need to crank up the Wurlitzer and drown us in the song of negativity.

If anything makes our little corner of reality look plain silly, it is the armchair quarterbacking and school-girl gossiping this topic has provoked. The uniformed whining even hit the pages of Railfan this month.

Any post by anyone who has no knowledge of the situation just exacerbates the negativity and overall bad vibe.

Heck yeah, let's throw rocks at everyone who TRIES something. How dare they? Cleary the guy sitting home on his duff polishing his badge from thw 101st Fighting Keyboardists knows how it should be done... If only someone would ask him.

Enough!

I would ask the moderators to declare anything other than factual news about 2100 to be forbidden from this board.

This is as bad as the stuff about the K-4 got last year.

Thanks for the soapbox,

Rob

Just as a personal note, it was the fire storm that ensued regarding my attempt to enforce a position of fact vice opinion about the 2100 that caused me to resign my position as moderator of this board last June. In the six months since then, after much reflection, I decided I will never participate in anything that smacks of "rail road preservation." Life is too short for this kind of behavior.

My interest in historic railroading remains unabated and I greatly enjoy Bob Y's researches on the web and is the major reason I still lurk.

Ed Fritz

Just to set the record straight concerning the Locust Summit grade on the former Reading Co. Shamokin Division, the grade begins at Gordon. Leaving Gordon, the line immediately curved to the right climbing the bank of Mahanoy Creek on the shoulder of a hill. Before reaching Lavelle, the line curved again across the creek on a high fill to the hill on the opposite side of the creek. Then it continued along the side of that hill, following the topography, generally curving to the left. Not until it reached Bast Jct. did the line straighten out for the final mile or so to Locust Summit.

> Any post by anyone who has no knowledge of the situation...

How do you know what knowledge other posters have on the situation?

Take my comments for example, which actually weren't negative since I said I feel that 2100 can make the hill... What do I have to back up my comments?

4 years being part of the crew on Reading T1's 2102 and 2101.
30 years experience in steam operations.
25 years experience on the line in question.
I've personally run steam up that hill.
I was there on site for both test runs.

I seem to recall Ross has also been around T1's a time or two.

Not exactly on topic, but how does this compare to the "new" wye at TVRM?

James