There may not be steam locomotives or box cars of jeeps out there - or other high profile items - BUT there are many cases of freight and passenger cars being discovered and retreived from outdoor and indoor storage. Over the past two years I know of at least 3 passenger cars (one stored indoors) and three freight car bodies (used indoors as part of buildings - but substantially intact) that have been identified by preservationists.

The point being that if musuems want to have a chance at saving this equipment, they need to have a reserve of cash on hand to pay for the substantial retreival expenses and stabilization once the pieces arrive. Some of this equipment is being saved because the current owners want it preserved. More often, however, the bulldozers and backhoes are standing by.

Tom Cornillie

Tom:

Boy, you hit the nail right on the head!!!

Les[/quote]

There is a well known story about a disaster that left a locomotive and some rolling stock entombed inside of the Churchill Tunnel. Unless something has changed in the last few years, I understand that the engine and cars are still in there. Without digging out my reference books, I recall that it is in Richmond, VA. As improbable as it may sound, the surrounding circumstances render the story completely plausible. I believe that it is a historically documanted fact.

RTK

Tom,

Ditto what Les said.

I'm working on some pieces of MOW equipment as we speak. These are appropriate for our collection (all freight), and were threatened with scrapping after January 1 had we not initiated contact and worked out a deal for their donation. Still working on their relocation, however.

Yes Ron, you are right. The story of the Church Hill Tunnel in Richmond is one that was documented in the book "Scalded to Death by the Steam". I had a friend who lived out in Richmond awhile back and he took me out to the park where the East portal of the Tunnel still exists. Supposedly it still exists on the West side too, but we didn't venture over there. It kind of surprised me that this Tunnel was like it was, without anything covering the mouth (not sure how far in it went... didn't go inside, just as far as you see in the photo below!) and it was very near a residential area! The story was that not only were there cars and a locomotive down there, but a number of workers died and are still buried inside as well. I wish I could remember more of that story, it was fascinating. I ended up giving the book to my friend, so I don't have it to go off of anymore.

Below is a photo of the East portal of the famous Church Hill Tunnel in Richmond, VA taken on Feb 26, 1996... a couple of days past ten years to the date! At least I can answer where I was at this time ten years ago...

Ron and David-

Some additional info (taken mostly from the C&O Historical Society MAGAZINE:

The Church Hill Tunnel was once the C&O's main route through Richmond but was abandoned a/c unstable soil. The C&O built a new route alongside the James River through downtown Richmond. As traffic increased years later, there was no room for expansion of that rail line so the C&O decided to re-open the tunnel in 1925 and use it as a bypass during times of heavy traffic. The tunnel cave in caught a work train working on the reopening and not a regular train. Since the equipment was old, and the dirt in the hill unstable, the railroad left it in place. And although there are a couple of laborers whose bodies were never recovered, the engineer's body eventually was, by digging down through the top of the hill until the tunnel was broached! The fireman, although escaping by crawling out under the flat cars, was badly scalded and died of his injuries shortly thereafter.

The locomotive involved was a 4-4-0 American Standard type, class A-5. C&O #231 was originally built for the Chicago, Cincinnati & Louisville (as its #54) by Baldwin in 1903. The CC&L eventually became the Chesapeake & Ohio of Indiana and eventually was absorbed into the C&O proper.

Les

Dave,
All I can say about that photo is Wow! That sure looks like an ominous entrance to a haunted tunnel. I have that book “Scalded To Death By the Steam” and it shows what is apparently the opposite portal, which looks like a flat brick wall in a deep cut. But that open end is something else. It must just lead into a blockage at some point inside.

Les,
Thanks for posting the information. I recall that there was some speculation on how many workers, if any, were buried inside. Apparently there were laborers that were not directly employed by the railroad, and they were not necessarily documented as being on that job when the accident occurred.

It seems that the basic rationale for leaving the locomotive was that it was not worth much, and recovery would have been very hazardous. The hazard also argued against going in and digging through the cave-in to look for bodies. So they sealed it up and considered it to be somewhat of a tomb. The tunnel was through clay that proved to be quite unstable, with subsidence showing evidence at the surface above. The tunnel lining was deemed to be structurally inadequate.

While it was not a valuable locomotive at the time, it would certainly be an interesting artifact today. It would not be the most difficult lost locomotive to recover. I wonder what that status of that site is today and what it will be in the future. It seems like every hill gets removed for a new freeway eventually.

RTK

Out in Fonda, NY, you can still see some old Fonda Johnstown & Gloversville boxcars now being used as storage near the old engine house, located right next to the CSX (ex Conrail/NYC) mainline. The cars were painted Penn Central with FJ&G paint-overs. They have now been painted over, but the ends are untouched, giving away their FJ&G/PC heritage.

and....

After Guilford abandoned the old Boston & Maine line trough Woodsville, NH, they left an old B&M box on a siding in the yard, and it was there even after the rails were pulled up. A year or so later, it was gone.

I'm sure you could devote a whole web page to forgotten & landlocked equipment along the tracks.

Here is a link to some information and newspaper clippings on Churchill Tunnel cave-in and rescue work:

http://www.richmondpubliclibrary.org/in ... tunnel.htm

Ron:

I agree that C&O #231 would certainly be an interesting artifact today. As I said earlier in this thread, it was built for the Chicago, Cincinnati & Louisville, which later became the Chesapeake & Ohio of Indiana. The 231 is actually one of two existing locomotives specifically built for this line. The other is C&O 4-6-0 #377 which was built by Baldwin for the Cincinnati, Richmond & Muncie Railroad in 1902 as its #108. The next year (after a corporate consolidation) CR&M 108 became Chicago, Cincinnati & Louisville #108. It is very probable that both locomotives worked side by side a number of times while in service on the line. Number 108 of course is now on display at the B&O Musuem in Baltimore as C&O 377. I stated that it is one of two existing locomotives from the C&OofI and that presumes that CC&L #54 (C&O #231) still exists. We know that she is there of course, but as to what shape she is in after being buried for more than 80 years now, one can only speculate. Certainly, an effort could be made to recover her. Perhaps as one of those PBS TV specials that have found the Titanic, recovered a B29 from a glacier, etc. Funding could probably be found. The question of the two missing workers might be a problem, but could be handled by stating that their remains should, after all these years, be finally given a proper burial.

Today, much of the Chesapeake & Ohio of Indiana has been torn out. But one segment that still exists lies between North Judson and Malden and is currently operated by a new short line railroad; the Chesapeake & Indiana. The Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum operated a couple of special trains over a portion of this line last year and hopes to have some type of regular operation between North Judson and LaCrosse, Indiana starting this year. Certainly HVRM would be receptive to providing a home for CC&L 4-4-0 #54, if she is ever recovered. But wherever she would end up, perhaps it is time to think seriously about giving her a better home for eternity.

Les Beckman

Disturbing sites where the dead are entombed is usually somewhat taboo and maybe even illegal to a ceratian extent. I think there is a term for it but today is not a good day for me. The Titanic comes to mind in this regard.

But it would be an interesting proposition to recover the train.

This thread ia another example of why this is by far the best site on railway preservation and history.

Later!
Mr. Ed

I don't think moving the body is an issue if the intent is for a proper burial. The CSS Merimac I believe was discovered and part of the hull brought up several years ago. I know that the body of one of the crew was recovered and what was billed as the last Confederate funeral was held in Savannah, GA in 2004.

Mr. Ed,

I understand exactly what you are saying. That unique, emotional status of Churchill Tunnel being a grave is the very quality that has allowed it and its contents to survive undisturbed long enough to become an historical artifact. The same reverence for a tomb applies to the Titanic, but the main factor in keeping it preserved was its inaccessibility.

I imagine that any suggestion of opening the tunnel and recovering its contents would be tremendously controversial. It might depend on the stated motive. Even though I am intrigued with the thought of recovery, I am not sure what the exact motive and plan should be.

I do not see it as a way to acquire a locomotive for restoration and operation. The far greater significance of the locomotive is its legend and lore surrounding the story of what happened in the tunnel. The most exciting part would be to wash away the dirt and mud, and reveal the details of an old locomotive that has not been seen since its fire went out on that long lost day. I’ll bet that old relic could speak.

RTK

With respect gents and ladies, the attitude that emotionalism should be the deciding factor in making decisions about preservation projects is most likely responsible for the majority of the many failed or incomplete efforts we read about on this board today.

Any carnivorous predator knows that we are just meat like any other critter once we are dead, and the individual personality, experiential memory, and what some religions refer to as "the soul" have left the building. Certainly, if the incident were so recent as to have friends or family who knew and lived with the victims alive and present, considerate empathy would provide a good argument for leaving well enough alone - but that ship sailed for (insert preferred version of Valhalla here) decades ago.

Such formalities as funerals help us deal with grief and bring about a sense of closure, so over millenia we have worked out rituals to make mortality more palatable. I can't, however, believe that those who have passed still care what happens to their remains - either there is nothing more after this life, or what is next must be so fascinating as to make this one irrevelant in retrospect, according to most faith systems (and I include scientific rationalism here) - and I have shared a few encounters with ghosts from time to time.

Point being, if anybody has a good rational plan and the reasoning to back it up to promote digging out these relics for interpretation and preservation, the fact that it includes what's left of some people who were nailed to their perches generations ago shouldn't make any difference. The challenge is coming up with a defensable reason to consider the whole job in the first place.

dave

Maybe it wouldn't be that controversial. A lot of time has passed, and there can't be that many people personally involved with the incident. I wonder if there are records or research that exactly details the present day site. The tunnel is about 3900 feet long and only a part of it caved in.

Apparently there was ground subsidence at the surface above the tunnel at different times prior to the collapse. This ground movement damaged streets and houses. I wonder if the surface above the tunnel is developed with houses and streets today, and if the ground has completely stabilized. If not, it seems like a rather prominent unresolved issue.

There must be people living in the area that could fill in some of the details on how this stands today, and what attitudes and ideas prevail.

RTK