More info @ www.diacenter.com

Last summer, I took the S.O. up to visit this place. While the museum was interesting in its' own right, I couldn't help but think-the entire package (building, lot and location) had the makings of a great railroad museum. Sad to say, this opportunity is gone-forever.

The other to note is the large amount of support this type of 'art thing' receives from the corporate world. While I have already factored in proximity to the self-described 'capital of the world' (NYC).

My question or comment is this: Given the fact that the modern art world is anything but mainstream, one has to wonder how they manage to endure and prosper-while the more mainstream world of railroad preservation rots away on the vine ?

Dave

Two questions:

1. If I understand correctly, this is a Nabisco factory that was never a rail facility. Why would that make "a great railroad museum?"

2. Why do you think modern art is less "mainstream" than the "world of railroad preservation?" By just about any definition (ticket revenue, visitation, gift shop sales, visibility, prestige), I would have thought the reverse.

I live nowhere near New York or any other "self-described capital of the world," but Home Depot is far more likely to donate to the Woodruff Arts Center than the Southeastern Railway Museum for several reasons. One, the Arts groups have entire staffs devoted to fundraising, and they spend time cultivating a relationship with donors and providing opportunities for the donor to benefit. Two, they offer clean, attractive venues that people enjoy. Three, their offerings are designed to be appealing as well as educational to a broad range of people.

Let's be blunt: many (certainly not all) "railroad museums" look like scrapyards, and are little more than tax-deductible playgrounds for the members.

But in the end, I do agree with your thread title. It is time to grow up - and accept that people don't love/remember trains the way we do. Back around 1990 or so, someone asked my now-wife, "so what did you think of trains before you met John?"

Answer: "I didn't." And that's the average American. They've never relied on a train for transportation. It would never occur to them that a slow ride, in a stuffy coach, on industrial trackage, behind a switcher would be "entertaining."

Trains are those things that block crossings when they are in a hurry. Like it or not. That's the starting point.

If "railroad museums" want to survive, much less grow, they need to mimic, not sneer at, those snooty art museum folks. They know what they're doing, and we can learn from them.

JAC

Dang it, John. Would you quit making so much sense?

Why do you think modern art is less "mainstream" than the "world of railroad preservation?" By just about any definition (ticket revenue, visitation, gift shop sales, visibility, prestige), I would have thought the reverse.

I have a simple barometer for mainstream. Take any group of five year olds-if the majority start whining about going home-it isn't mainstream. If the whine about leaving-well, you get my drift.

I'm not sure what the author means by modern art, but when I think of the term, I think of the stuff that no average person would identify as art, and in fact is revulsed by: think the religious symbols in unrine, the use of excrement, the v*g*n* monologues or a great many other things that becomes art, not because it has readily apparent instrinsic beauty, but because the "artist" tells us is art and has the impramatur of an NEA grant. I can't draw a straight line without a ruler, but I know the difference between the Pieta and the P*ss C****.

I'd swear the fable of the emporer's new clothes was written for this. That may not be all of it, or even a representative sample, but is the flagship in a world where Mapplethorpe is a genius and Michaelangelo is a dead white male inferred to suffer from an oedipus complex.

That having been said lets be honest-those guys real art lies in their ability to get money from foundations corporations and the taxpayer.

Now consider this "community". My first taste of the kind of stuff I would experience was chatting with another guy chasing the 261 in 1995 or 1996. As the engine grew near, he saw it renumbered "Lackawanna 1661", and literally stomped his feet about having his shot ruined-NOTE, the hundreds paying to ride were thrilled-the freeloader with the Kodak threw a tantrum.

How many times have moderators had to lock down threads here-instead of cooperating, the RR presevations seem to rip each other to shreds, for all kinds of infractions, most trivial. Personal aggrandizement seems to be the motive-every time we don't effectively counter the "big boys. big toys" in the paper (or worse feed it), we're one step closer to a a few government provided museums desperate for funding because the public hasn't a clue about the importance of trains.

If this advocation is marginalized-look in the mirror. When was the last time you brought a kid to your museum or operation, or helped somebody learn the craft?

I'm not entirely sure we should be looking to a "cultural industry" that can almost be argued to be perpetuating a form of mental illness (i.e. people paying exorbitant amounts of money for vaguely abstract paintings/concepts/installations/performances) for/as a business model.

There's a reason that the National Endowment for the Arts/Humanities has been under steady attack for decades now. And I'm not sure I want to be riding in that kind of boat.

1. The site is pehaps 100 yds away from active railroad. (MN Hudson Div)
2. The raildock is intact and there is vestigial evidence of a yard on the
source end. There may still be a switch off the main.
3. The overall design and footprint of the buidling is very reminiscent
of railroad shop buildings of the same time period. The structure wouldn't
be out of place in the old ex-NYC shop complex down the line a bit.
4. Visitor access by rail, road and water.
5. The town (Beacon) actually welcomed the museum and spent some cash on infrastructure.



Depends how one defines the word "mainstream." How about substituting the phrase "red state" ? What is more mainstream-a restored passenger car from the Guilded Age or a crucifix standing in a pool of liquid (purportedly modern art ?)



My point-exactly.

Dave

I must confess that I find myself agreeing with some of what superheater says and understanding most of his post!
I too think that the little kids are an excellent barometer and one of my greatest joys is to watch them react when #40 pulls in with the Polar/Santa trains and know that at least a small percentage of them will be tomorrows torch bearers.
As to our fellow "preservationists" tendancy to be nothing but critics, I still remember a fan in a denim jacket covered with patches of the different railroads coming up to me in Kansas City, Mo. as we were headed west with the Golden Spike Centennial Limited and with great indignety lectureing me on how awful the 759 looked painted in blue&gold. He had nothing to say about the fact that we had restored her to service, that she had just come about 1/3rd. of the way across country on time, had generated terrific crowds all along the way and the resultant media interest in the Golden Spike celebration, etc.,etc. All he cared about was that it wasn't black!!! Guess he'd have rather it be black and rusting away vs. gold&blue and alive??? I learned right there&then that our "fraternity" has an abundance of idiots in its ranks, and they're to be ignored!
IMHO-Ross Rowland

Maybe the title of this thread should be a less-antagonistic term, perhaps "Time to Evolve".

FWIW, the list of movers and shakers behing Dia both in the City and in Beacon is a who's who of the people and organizations that are sources of grants and funding for arts and educational institutions:

http://www.diaart.org/dia/funding.html

The important lesson here is that we as an industry need to start thinking of ourselves as educational resources and institutions to our communities, just as these folks do.

Think more of what's in proximity to your routes or locations, and how you can partner with them to attract attention to your area. Everyone will benefit from it., and you never know whose attention you might benefit from!

To further my point, consider that these sort of venues, though unrelated to railroads per se can offer other opportunities for the railroad community.

The opening of Dia:Beacon was served by an 11-car train of PV's that brought the trendy set from Grand Central to Beacon Station (with bus connection to the Museum).

http://www.privaterailcars.net/html/dia-museum.html

[quote="isaksenj"]Maybe the title of this thread should be a less-antagonistic term, perhaps "Time to Evolve".

The important lesson here is that we as an industry need to start thinking of ourselves as educational resources and institutions to our communities, just as these folks do.

YES. Historically, we have been collections of railroad history. We need to become presentors of history - why is this "stuff" important. We need to spend at least the same amount of time and money on presenting as we do preserving or collecting.

Jim

I don't want to be in that boat either- but if you can sell crap as art (literally)- imagine what you could do with a steam engine that's the gateway for a kindergarten class to ignite passion for:

1.) Math
2.) Physics
3.) Chemistry
4.) Economics
5.) History
6.) Public Policy

Learn from Hambuger Clown, you wanna pry open wallets-be sure the kids say "can we go to..."

To carry this a little further; recently I paid a visit to the former Turtle Creek Pump Station (1909), now the Sammons Center for the Arts in Dallas, Texas:



This building is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, and has been designated a Texas Historical Landmark, an American Water Landmark, and a Dallas Landmark. It is also a great example of adaptive reuse; here is a picture of the lobby showing the "museum" that describes Turtle Creek Pumping Station:



This is all great; a wonderful example of adaptive reuse, and a good example of taking something that would have been torn down otherwise, and finding another purpose for it. As Dallas' oldest extent pump station, and being designed by the same individual who designed Dallas City Hall; it is worth of the acolades that have been given it.

But, at the same time, something bothers me. It is not a pump station; and hasn't been for some time. But what's more, the SW corner of the building was knocked off to make room for the widening of Harry Hines Blvd.; and the stack was taken down as well. There are four former steam pumping stations in Dallas; and this is the only one I did not recognize for what it was because it doesn't even look like a pump station anymore.

OK, now here is Cadiz Pump Station; also in Dallas:



Cadiz looks like a pump station. It was built just six years later than Turtle Creek Pump Station; and while the steam machinery has been scrapped; the pumping machinery that replaced it is still there:



The building is also in amazingly good shape for being out of service for 50 years; Turtle Creek Pump Station was derelict and extensively redone to make it what it is now.

Yet, Cadiz Pump Station has no landmark status whatsoever. Most people don't even know that it is there. Why is that?

Part is location -- it is not the best part of town. Part is political -- Dallas doesn't want it to be designated a landmark because plans are to tear it down to make room for expansion of the I-35E/I-30 Interchange.

But, I think there is something else too. It ties in with past RYPN editor's comments that steam locomotives are best displayed in roundhouses, not museum buildings.

News just came out that the big (90 ft long) steam pumping engine in Brindley Bank Pumping Station, Rugeley, Staffs, UK needs a new home. In discussing this on my "Steam Lizards" group; someone made some thoughtfull observations:



From which I am finally realizing the following:

1. We think a roundhouse, engine house, pump station, etc. is worthy of preservation if it is intact, with everything in place. But to the general public; the machinery inside is nothing but "junk"; only the building itself is worthy of perservation.

2. Steam engines (including locomotives, of course) are more difficult to keep and not as appealing when taken out of their native context. Surprise surprise?

It sounds like we have some room for trying to educate the general public here. As has been stated, the arts community does so; so of course do the rail-to-trails folks. We need to continue trying to explain why something like this:



Should be preserved as is; and not scrapped out and the building adaptively reused; or the engines removed and set out in a field on a pedastal somewhere and the building just torn down. Add to that the need to continue to pass on our interest in preservation to a future generation in the face of development pressures.

I hope this makes sense and generates some positive results; I have been wrestling with the thought for awhile.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

Look at what the folks are doing with ATSF 3751.

http://www.sbrhs.org/education.html

This is an example of the kind of work that will attract the attention of serious public and private donors. There is probably more goodwill and education generated here than out on the road at trackspeed at $xx per ticket. An expensive use of the engine, yes - but it is under steam and enlightening a new generation.

Wesley

Sadly the"art" of presenting history in an entertaining and informative way tends to take a distant back seat in railroad preservation and enthusiast activities of all types. In all the information that is posted on the internet have you ever seen any kind of a directory to presentations and presenters on railroad topics? One organization where I am a member sends out thirty pages of stale news articles to their members each month, and gives the presenters of programs at their meetings a one sentence (or less) description crammed into the bottom of an inside page in their publication. And they wonder why fewer and fewer people show up at their meetings.

"Some of the descriptions of modern art up-thread sound like they originated from the people that benefit from having our country divided --Wealthy, self-styled populists that have never worked a hard day in their lives."

Excuse me, but I've yet to meet anyone in this hobby/advocation that has to debate whether to spend to time on their yacht or volunteering at their historic railroad. Over and over again, we lament the perpetual poverty of this advocation. I know I'm not awash in cash.

I have seen "wealthy populists" lecture me on why I have a responsibility to subsidize the endeavors of the arts community. I remember very clearly seeing Christopher Reeve on TV (before his accident). When I used to be harassed to give "my fair share" to the United Way, I always saw lots of arts recipents, but very few historic organization on the UW donee list.

Additionally, those of us that lament History Preservation movement we were discussing specific examples of so-called "art" , not all of it.

Somewhere past Jackson Pollock, a strain of fascism and nihilism that seeks to offend, and offend gratutitously entered the art world and it seems rears its ugly head in response to grant money.

As for your assertion that the art is merely the product meeting a market demand, thats not true. A good deal of the arts and humanities funding is dependent on the mandatory disgorgement rules that apply to private foundations and private operating foundations under Internal Revenue Code Sec. 409, as well as the estate tax rules staring in in Section 2000 that provide for the reduction of estate tax liabilty if proceeds are donated to a recognized charity create a largesse seeking an outlet.

Historic preservation has never been hgh on the docket of the wealthy classes, in deed, one can see a wanton disregard for preservation, especially when it sits on a desireable piece of land.

As for division, thats the consequence of freedom, and the emergence of alternate media that prevent the formation of herds of "sheople"