Just nostalgia here. Not too many color photos of these around, like this one at Harmon, NY in 1950. Color film was comparatively expensive then, which helped control the rampaging trigger fingers we see today. Except for the one hidden in the coal mine, none of these survived.

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?a ... enColl.jpg

Were all the Niagaras built with sealed beam headlamps?

Hello,

Awesome photo.

The Niagara would be my personal pick if a major American reproduction was considered. What a terrible shame that one was not saved. Its outstanding performance was the part of its undoing.

If my memory serves me right, during the Niagara's reign, the New York Central reduced the travel time of the Twentieth Century Limited from New York to Chicago to 15-1/2 hours. I don't believe that travel time was ever matched since then. Infrastructure was as critical as the power.....track pans, servicing, etc. I believe the Niagara utilization peaked at around 25,000 miles per month.

With the ultimate decline of the passenger business, what do you do with 5000 drawbar horsepower at 60 miles per hour, or 4300 dbhp @ 90 mph??....severe underutilization!

It may be freightening to consider what David Wardale could have done with a Niagara in light of his accomplishments with the South African Railways #3450. In today's world, the only way you could utilize that much power at speed would be hotshot stacktrains or roadrailers.

It is fun to speculate.

With regards to reproductions, in America, could we ever see a project to the level of the A1 Tornado being built in the UK? Fundimentally, in America you simply do not have a nationwide popularity for railway preservation that exists in the UK. I believe that is what makes that project go as well as all the preserved railway operations that exist in that country. Perhaps in America, you capture interest the right corporate tycoon and build it straight out. The cash is definitely here. Trying to unify a large consortium of doners (as done with the A1) can be an extreme challenge.

A reproduction Niagara......$4 Million...at least? All those very large roller bearings.....very expensive! Those roller bearing connecting rods are pinnacles of the art in forging and machining. I can't imagine what expense it would take to make them alone.

It would have been interesting to see a Niagara scooping water at 80 MPH. I guess I was born a bit late.

Regards,

Randy Musselman

I too have often lamented that not one of these magnificent machines was saved. From my experience with the American railfan fraternity there's zero chance that a multi-million dollar campaign to fund a ground up reproduction of any class engine would come anywhere close to raising the needed funds. Not even remotely close. Firstly, you can literally count on 2 hands the number of "wealthy" Americans who are also unabashed foamers. Secondly, an unfortunately large majority of the fraternity are "working class" folks who live from paycheck to pay check and couldn't contribute anything meaningful if they wanted to. Thirdly, those of us who really love steam with a passion are a dying breed and there's fewer of us every day. Understandably the younger fans are devoted to those machines they grew up with and a steam engine is some sort of novelty not an icon.
When we ran the Port Jervis mainline program(1996-98) the vast majority of the 22,000 people we carried were "daisy pickers" not railfans. This tells you a lot, as here was the chance to ride 200 miles rt behind a beautifully restored state of the art 4-8-4 at track speed(79 mph), with NO diesels in the consist, through beautiful country, with lots of run-bys, and some fun stuff at the destination, at a VERY reasonable price,(especially when you compare it to what the UPRR now charges for a day behind 844 or 3985-and that's with diesels in the consist, limited or no real run-bys, all sealed window equipment etc. etc.) and with open window seating available at a very modest premium, in other words a mainline steam product that hadn't been available anywhere for years(and hasn't been since) yet the "serious" steam fraternity was barely present. That speaks volumnes as to where "we" serious steam lovers stand. Our ranks are a lot thinner than we might like to believe and getting more so daily.
I too love to fantasize and perhaps if I either hit the lottery or become best freinds with Bill Gates, right after I pay to get 614 back in service(and buy a 79mph regional upon which to run her),I'll form a group to build a Niagara from the ground up. BTW-based on the work we did through the ACE project, I'd give you an educated guess that to build a 6000 class engine today would run somewhere between $25-30 million!!
Ross Rowland

I am sure we all have thoughts about what we would do with an unlimited supply of money. Big steam always comes to mind and the NYC always seem to be near the top for what-ifs. I would like to see someone get a Mohawk running.

Ross:

I think you have touched on it. Are ranks ARE thin, and getting a lot thinner every day. And the acquisition of a regional might be the way to go. You could even operate it with vintage diesels. And then, at certain times of the year, run it with 100% steam. There would be a lot of obstacles to overcome, but it could be done.

Les

Ross,

Thank you for your comments.

It looks like I was a little low on my Niagara reproduction cost estimate. I guess in reality the 614 has about all the same features as the Niagara short of boiler pressure and driver diameter. I have a copy of the S-1 power curve and the bulge was I believe at 60 MPH. I would suspect the bulge is at a slightly lower speed on the 614...not all bad at the average speeds you may see today.

As for daisy pickers in the U.S. I agree with your point. They will be paying the bills for future excursions. The key is how do you make an impact and get the attention of the general public. When my mom was holding me as a toddler in the early 60's near my home north of Gettysburg and seeing a T-hog rolling by on a Reading Ramble, I believe that is what did it for me. The bug has never left. Back then I did not have Star Wars, every electronic gadget I could desire, high tech cartoons and movies that continually try to out-compete each other. There is a lot of competition for the customer senses. An old steam locomotive maybe isn't "cutting edge" enough today.

What is the answer? Perhaps a quality experience like you see at Strasburg. As you can see, they have a very diverse offering to their customers and it is first class all the way. Their location is also a help....the heart of Lancaster County. The customers are already in the mood to relax, to see and experince the sights.

With the 614, you have the ability to shock and awe. I think if you sat a modern kid beside the right-of way, maybe 15 feet away and have him or her witness the 614 blasting by at 75+ MPH, I think it makes an impact, especially if they feel the ground shaking beneath them. What you did a Port Jervis is a good example.

Either experience takes lots of cash. As Rick Melvin said, the 765 doesn't burn coal, it burns money!

At $500-600K reviving cost, how can you make it work? Do the new FRA regs allow you hours of service versus physical flue time? This would help if you could only run a few times a year. Secondly, maybe with daisy pickers, you move around. Perhaps if you stay or run to long in a region, it gets old?......wait awhile and then come back. Who knows?

I had the privilege of visiting the UK last year. One thing I noticed is the the working class Joe does not have many luxuries. Maybe that is why rail preservations is so strong there. If it has always been that way, railways are much more important to them. Maybe if they get together they can make something bigger than themselves. Notice many of their restorations are first class.

We need to keep promoting the cause. We have a lot of competition.

Thanks.

Randy Musselman

I think your point of moving to new markets is a key.We were close to working out a program some years back with Amtrak wherein we'd take a combination promotion/excursion train on a national tour to promote Amtrak and offer weekend excursions behind the 614. It was very close to going but got killed as the folks at the head office took the money allocated for it and spent it with a NYCity marketing firm to come up with the name for the new high speed train for the Northeast Corridor.
When I first heard the word Acela I thought it was a new feminine hygeine product, not the name of a train!! Oh well, you win some and you lose some!!
But moving before you wear the market out is valid. We proved with the Pt. Jervis program there's only so many folks who will pay to ride a steam train and that was dead center in the highest population market in the USA.
Ross Rowland

I might humbly point out that PJ wasnt exactly
a great destination. Not much going on
there really.
Over in England look at the
the Cathedrals Express. They give
a reason to go somewhere. As you
have said, most are daisy pickers.
Your offering covered most of the
other bases: good scenery, open
windows (if desired) high speed and
a varied route profile and as
close to a Niagara we will see in
the east.

As someone faced with the issue of whether his 25,000+ convention relocates to a city with a bigger convention center or not, I have to respectfully point out a flaw in your analysis: There's a big difference in the market for a trip in an expensive urban area with several weekends of such trips than a less urban area with one or two weekends of trips.

As much as I might want to ride a Port Jervis trip behind 614 (or 765, or 261, or pick-a-big-steamer), the already-exorbitant ticket price is only the tip of the iceberg compared to transport to/from Hoboken, a night's lodging in someplace where I can get to Hoboken by departure, etc.

The last "mainline" trip I rode? Over ten years ago: 261 at Scranton in the winter of 1996. If I can afford the ticket, I can't afford the price to get to/from the train and crash nearby. And I don't have kids.

As far as I've seen, the first one had a drum type
and the rest had the twin beams but I could
be wrong.

I have pictures of almost all of them, and it would appear that they all had the "cyclops" when new, and all were converted to the dual lights later on, judging from the dates on the photos. I sure wish I could remember for real, but I was just a kid when they were retired (scrapped).

Brother Mitchells analysis confuses me. If you consider our $65 price "exhorbinant" what adjective do you use to describe the UPRR prices now in the hundreds?? My main point was/is that the ranks of us steam "die-hards" are a lot thinner than we'd like to think and getting thinner by the day.
That's one of the main reasons that the events(Thomas,Polar,Santa) that use other attractions to introduce a new generation to the magic of steam are so critical to the future.
IMHO-Ross Rowland

Ross,

Speaking of Niagaras, I have a softbound book reviewing the C&O Greenbriars and they did experiment with smoke lifting shields on these locomotives and they included some pictures of them. I think they were tried on the J3a's. I thought they looked pretty good.

Hey, move the headlight to the top of the smokebox front, take its visor off, remove the number boards and you have got the same front end. If you took a quick look at the whole package you may think it is a Niagara accept for no centipede tender trucks. The extended 50 Ton coal bunker now even has the look on the top end. Lets not go there, the C&O rivet counters would have a cow! I am sure you got cat calls on extending the coal bunker! Ownership does have its privleges.

Best wishes, the 614 is an awsome machine.

Thank you for the dialog.

Best Regards,

Randy Mussleman

Ross,

You have a point. In my previous comments about the Brits in the UK. I was also told, that the work-a-day person in the UK may not have many luxuries but they do make a point to take vacations or make special travel events. There is something to be said about that concept.

In America, how much does Joe sixpack pay for NASCAR tickets, basketball games, baseball games or top name rock concerts or taking hunting or fishing trips? The prices are not out of line. Marketing....marketing.....marketing. A few hours, fast pace, good destination....maybe some shopping......it has to be exciting.

Hey if you do it right, maybe you can grow a new generation of foamers!

Food for thought.

Best regards,

Randy Musselman