Tickets are still available for June 3rd's Steam All The Way trip from Chattanooga to Summerville, Georgia (100-mile RT) with ex-USA 2-8-0 #610 running unassisted with a five-car consist. Get 'em while you can.

http://tvrail.com/pages/schedule/steamalltheway.html

Isn't there also one on September 30? Will this one have 610 unassisted also?

Another question.

I think that before the "new" turntable was installed, TVRM ran these trips with a Geep behind the Steamer. Did you folks have issues with cinders in the diesel? Was it just a matter of a simple cleaning? Did any damage occur? Was it an issue at all?

I've developed a little bit of an interest in this after a (now locked) topic from a few days ago. I've seen so many shots of the Southern 4501 with diesel helpers behind and the 261 seems to take along an Amtrak unit from time to time. Just wondering if what issues, if any, you all have experienced.

Dave Crosby

Yes, as listed on the website.



All TVRM steam trips to Summerville prior to 2003 (beginning in 1995) ran with a diesel helper along simply to "drag" the train back to Chattanooga since there was no turning facility in Georgia. Generally the steamer (either 4501 or 610...or both on a few special trips) would trail the consist running in reverse on the return to Chattanooga. Currently, Autumn Leaf Specials in October and November still use a diesel helper for 610 to get over the line with a seven car consist as there are several grades along the line including the 2-mile, 2% Missionary Ridge portion near Fairview (you gotta hear it to believe it!) Steam All The Way is a "stripped down" line up of five coaches which is about the limit for 610. The concept of these special excursions is to offer a totally "non diesel" trip and therefore the limited capacity and lack of first class cars. Of course 4501 could have pulled much more without assistance but, again, no turning facility until 2003 and the "Oh-One" went out of service in late 1998. When restoration is complete on SR #630, she'll be able to pull a seven car train on the ex-Central of Georgia line without a problem. Now, I'm not in the mechanical department, but to the issue of clogging: I never heard of any concerns about the diesels but when rail diesel cars (RDCs) where used as trailers, cinders would accumulate in the rooftop fans and require frequent cleaning. This was therefore avoided when possible.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/CLASSICSTEAM/Postcards%20-%20TVRR%204501/?action=view&current=4501-LytleRoad.jpg

Photo by Robert W. Lyndall ~ www.classiclights.org

Growing up on the Western Maryland Railway I always heard they put the steam engines behind the diesels whenever they were doubleheaded because the railroad wanted to keep the smoke from clogging up the air filters on the diesels or causing them to shut down. The WM even insisted on putting the diesels in front of fan trip engines as long as the railroad existed. In Baltimore the diesels were added to the front of the steam engine so they could power the train through the no smoke zone in the city. However the B&O, majority owner of the WM, regularly put steam helpers in front of the passenger diesels on Sand Patch Grade. They seemed to have no problems with this arrangement.

I suspect the diesel builders recomended putting the diesels in front of steam engines either to be sure there would be no complaints or warranty arguments in case some problem did develop or because they had already experienced such a problem. In the case of the WM, they were very agressive in following the instructions of manufactures. I can not see how this could be a problem except possibly in tunnels where the diesels could starve for air and shut down causing a train delay.

John Bohon

That would explain why they used WM f-units ahead of the 2101 during the Chessie Steam Specials. One of my earliest steam recollections was seeing 2101 on Jack's Mountain with F units on the point.

The same goes for SR 4501 rounding Helmstetters in the early 70's with WM F's leading. It was downhill and everything was drifting so the smoke & cinders (lower case) shouldn't have been an issue. Then again it's definitely not all downhill on the Western Maryland (if it had been, why would they need those monstrous Challengers?!?)

One more question, Steve-

How fast can the trains go on the C&C now?

I think I will be going on the Sept. 30 trip. Look forward to it.

The WM added F units to 4501 for the climb up the west slope of Sand Patch and kept them on the train down the grade around Helmsteaders for dynamic braking. I don't think the 01 could have pulled the train upgrade and even 759 got helpers for dynamics when it ran over the grade. What is not generally known is that the WM intended to add helpers for the climb up Williamsport hill into Hagerstown. The WM engineer told the dispatcher over the radio to get the helpers out of the way they were going up alone and they did. It was a great show.

As for 2101 on both the Steam Special and the Freedom Train, the railroad put the helpers on the head end so they could speed the train up (it was a long trip in terms of relatively slow speeds), keep the smoke down in Jacks Mountain tunnel, provide dynamic braking downgrade, and so the helpers could be removed and gotten out of the way more quickly without any switching. This gave 2101 the opportunity to make an entrance into Hagerstown and Gettysburg unassisted. On the April 1978 trip the diesels helped 2101 get the train started away from the runby at Fairfield Station and then let the T-1 pull the train to the tunnel. It was quite a show as the T-1 pulled 22 coaches and shoved the diesels up roughly 2% at 10 mph with the booster engaged. The diesels took over at the tunnel so the stack could be cleared allowing the passengers to breath in the tunnel.

The WM tended to let the steam engine do as much of the work unassisted as reasonably possible. When the Freedom train ran from Cumberland to Hagerstown in July 1976 2101 pulled the train up Williamsport hill unassisted in spite of going through the crossovers at Williamsport east end and starting up the grade at 10 mph. When we went through Wiliamsport I was standing alone in the baggage door of the crew car but by the time we topped the hill most of the crew had joined me. The loud exhaust had rousted them out of some much needed sleep! If we had a few host railroads today as friendly as the WM we would have much more mainline steam running around.

John Bohon

We have operated Amtrak (and other diesels behind) Milw 261 in the past and there has never been an issue of the steam locomotive choking the diesel to death. Generally the cab interiors get a little cindered-up if the crew runs with the cab windows open. Most of the steam excursions that got diesel assists in the old days were just that, assistance over a particularly heavy grade that the steam locomotive could not (or the railroad did think it could) handle by itself.

With HEP a necessity on today's Amtrak sponsored trips, the diesel (mostly used as a power car) has to be consisted behind the steam locomotive. Anyway, why would anyone want the diesels leading?

As a sidebar, the #261 trips on the TC&W at the end of July will NOT be Amtrak sponsored and will therefore not have the now ubiquitous P42 diesels trailing the steam locomotive.

Don C.

Thanks for reliving some fond old memories John. I too was there when Charlie Doll took 4501 up Williamsport Hill unassisted. It's something I'll never forget. In fact a gentleman named Bill Barr had a photo of that train on Helmstetter's. It's still one of the most beautiful photos I've ever seen. If only I could somehow get my mitts on it...

Just based on memory I don't recall anything in the EMD operators manuals, General Service Bulletins, or the Field Service News (distributed internally to EMD reps) relevant to the F-units that advocated placing them on the point when operating with steam locomotives. The manuals of the period did have specific instructions for operating with steam locomotives, but they related to continuous ratings and sharing load.

However I know two gentlemen in the Mechanical Department who would have been very upset if one of their nice clean F-units had come back in with the cab all sooted up from trailing a steam locomotive.

PC

Anyone else recall on at least one of the Dutch Line trips (2/5/72), WM put two Alco FA's on the point with 2102 at Fairfield. Now that was something to see (and hear) coming past the orchard on Jacks Mtn. Not too bad at Blue Ridge Summit either.

My everlasting memory of that trip was later that day, when, as it was getting dark and beginning to snow, 2102 was leaving Hagerstown eastbound. My wife and I were getting out of our car in Paradise, a few miles north of town, and we could hear that magnificent whistle and roaring exhaust way off in the distance. I still get chills when I think about it!

I can see the relevance of the two guys from the Mechanical Dept who got upset over the steam engine spewing soot, etc on their nice clean diesels.

But I also can relate to a steam locomotive crew who went ballistic when the lead diesel had some kind of crankase explosion and sent numerous gallons of lube oil over the entire steamer behind!! Quite a sight to behold!

Gotta love railroading stories!