An effort is being made to preserve this item which had been extensively talked about several times on this forum.

Quoted from New Jersey Transportation Heritage Bulletin Vol 15, No, 3 June, 2006

"Gasoline-electric "doodlebug" # 5012 was built for the Erie RR in March, 1931 by Electro-Motive Corp. and Bethlehem Steel at Wilmington, De. It was part of an order for eleven cars. It was powered by two Winton internal combustion gas engines. It served time on the Erie and NYS&W RR's

After a short career ( just over 20 yrs) it was retired in 1951. A short time later, it was sold to the Central Ohio Railfans Assoc. Susbsequently, title was transferred to the Ohio Railway Museum of Worthington, Ohio.

Over the years, due to lack of interest and volunteers, internal strife, vandalism, a fire and being subject to the ravages of mother nature, the 5012 has deteriorated substantially. A revitalized Ohio Railway Museum Board of Directors has deemed that the 5012, along with considerable other equipment, as surplus as to their re-focus on local Ohio Traction equipment and it's heritage.

The United Railway Historical Society of New Jersey and the Friends of the New Jersey Transportation Heritage Center have attempted on two other occasions, to acquire this most historically significant unit, but were unsuccessful. This is our last chance! If we are not successful this time around, chances are that the 5012 will come to a cruel end to her over 85 year life-span.

Immediate action is necessary. The Ohio Railway Museum is looking for $10,000 to part with this motorcar. We have raised over $7000.00 in a few short weeks. Many other people have expressed interest and concern, made suggestions, and given input, but have not been willing to put up what is really needed--- money!! Now is the time for everyone to dig into their pockets and lend their cash to support this most worthy effort.

Estimated cost of preparation, crane service, and truck transportation is from $25,000 to $35,000. This is a long term restoration project. But if we don't act quickly to save the car, all will be lost.

The sponsors of the 5012 project are: The Erie Lackawanna Historical Society, The Friends of the New Jersey Transportation Heritage Center, and the URHS of New Jersey, with the latter being the lead organization.

Kindly send your "Save 5012" donations to "URHS", 36 Banstead Way, Jackson, NJ 08527.

First off, I am glad to see that this car is not being forgotten and I am glad to see that there has been a significant amount raised for the purchase of this car. It is one of the most important survivors from the pioneering years of dieselization. However, is the URHS the right organization to lead the restoration of this car? The fact that they allowed much of their collection to deteriorate amidst political infighting and the fact that they have yet to produce a plan for stabilizing what remains in their collection does not lend credence to their abilities.

The 5012 will require major work to simply repair damage from environmental exposure. Even if it could be restored to operating status, it is unlikely that it could be operated on a regular basis without some significant modifications that would sacrifice its historic fabric. Some basic questions that I would like to see answered are – how will the restoration be financed, who will carry it out and where, and where will it be exhibited over the long term.

Tom Cornillie

It is good to see they have raised $7000 for the 5012. However, they raised almost $10,000 several years ago to save it. When the last effort fell through, they used the money to buy a trolley from Portugal (built in NJ). I don't know about large donors, but small donors (by this I mean $100) were never asked if it was ok to divert their targeted donation.

Anyone got a photo of what 5012 looks like today?

Les

Given both the broad significance of this car (Kettering himself considered the Winton PM used in this car to be a direct ancestor of the 567) and its current deteriorated state, I think that the best home for the car would be the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (RMPA). It would fit in to their collection by showing an important advance in railroad technology and they seem to have the capabilities to handle the car’s complex restoration.

This current effort could be very beneficial to both organizations if the URHS were to work with the RMPA – where they URHS would raise funds to allow the RMPA to acquire 5012. The amount that the URHS raises could be used as leverage for a matching grant, which RMPA is in a far better position to successfully apply for than URHS. This would also help to restore URHS’s credibility by allowing them to be closely associated with a successful preservation project.

Regarding the car's current condition. I saw the car on a breif visit in 2003 to ORM when the musuem was closed. The view that I got was not unlike this view from Frank Hicks from the same year:

http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-railcar-afh.jpg

It appeared that the roof had been recently primed. likewise, I did not see any major areas of rust-through in the side sill. However, I would expect that there would be major side sill rust given the fact that this car has been outside nearly its entire life. Likewise, I do not know what measures have been taken to protect the interior or prime mover.

Tom Cornillie

I think it is a dangerous game to start saying that item "A" should go to group "B", rather than "C" when you are not the owner of A or speak for B or C. With that in mind, while the Erie ran through the state of PA, I do not believe this car ever was in service on any Erie line in PA. This car was in service mostly in NJ (leased to the NYS&W and painted into their post-Erie maroon and grey color scheme), and also in upstate NY. So I don't see the logic in "assigning" it to the RMPA.

I will grant you that if URHS were to take ownership of it then it would appear it will still rust away, just at a different location.

You know as I read through these postings, every once in awhile something hits me. For example….

"Given both the broad significance of this car (Kettering himself considered the Winton PM used in this car to be a direct ancestor of the 567)…"

Why would the average guy care? Why would a potential benefactor care? Does it allow handicap kids to ride? How does it educate school kids? Would a family of 6 pay $10 each to ride behind such a significant artifact? I've been around this stuff for a long time and in all honesty burned out by it. You need a better reason for people to care than what you, and me and just about everyone else in this business, say these days.

Here's another one….

"I will grant you that if URHS were to take ownership of it then it would appear it will still rust away, just at a different location."

You know, they try and do their best in a State where few people care about such items. Lets give these guys a break. If its tough to preserve something in Ohio or California, I'd say its many times tougher in NJ for a variety of reasons.

Although the best minds in the industry read this board, rarely do I ever see real solutions discussed. What can be done to help URHS? What can be done to help any museum out there prevent rot? Lets talk solutions, not just talk about problems.

Sorry, if I seemed annoyed. I don't mean to flame or anything here. There are good people on this site. Lets work together as a community to fix the problems at hand.

OK, off the soap box…

J.R.

My opinion on where the car should go is based solely on the demonstrated capabilities of the organizations and the capability of the car to contribute to RMPA's interpretive strategy. While the car may not have operated in Pennsylvania, the Erie was an important Pennsylvania railroad. Likewise they already have several pieces of equipment that are technologically significant but did not operate in Pennsylvania (the DD-1 for example). Given the technological significance of this car and its ability to illustrate a key stage in the story of dieselization - I could see any museum whose collection has a focus on technological evolution (the California State Railroad Museum, for example) making a case for preserving this car.



I have seen this sentiment expressed in many discussions both here and elsewhere. Imagine if this same standard was applied to professional sports – where discussion of trades by anybody but team owners was frowned upon. What if only politicians were allowed to speak about government policy?

Offering personal opinions is welcomed by RYPN (in as far as any opinion complies with the established guidelines) and I am proud to sign it with my real name.

Tom Cornillie

At their best, museums interpret historical objects to tell a story in a way that can be understood by an individual without substantial prior knowledge. Does the 'average' person know who Kettering was, what a 567 is ? Probably not. However if they are going to a railroad museum to learn about the history of railroads - then this car has the potential to tell an important story (namely how and why did diesels replace steam locomotives). This same story can be further developed and focused to help school kids understand how an internal combustion engine works, how a diesel is different from a gasoline engine, and how engineering helped to make better engines.

As I stated earlier, I do not think that this car can be easily restored to operation and I do not think that this should be a priority at this point. If people (of all abilities) want to ride a historic train, there are many other opportunities available for that.



I actually started a thread on this very topic in March, 2005 that pretty well went nowhere. If you are interested, please feel free to respond to what is there or to add some new points.

http://rypn.sunserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12397

Tom Cornillie

Mr. May makes a valid point,however as a former life long Garden Stater I must share that it seems to me that the URHS is the last outfit I would select to "save" a piece of equipment. It's well known that they are literally drowning in what they now have and the real chances of a State RR museum ever happening have sunk to as near zero as you can get.
Sending a piece that you'd want to see restored to the URHS would be akin to sending a steam engine you'd like to see restored to operating condition to Steamtown!
Black holes both!
Ross Rowland

Ross:

> the URHS is the last outfit I would select to
> "save" a piece of equipment.

And I would say that there are many museums across the country with the same problem. Its not just URHS and the problem is fairly well documented.

> and the real chances of a State RR museum ever
> happening have sunk to as near zero

A museum or no museum, the chance of rot remains just about the same. A museum is not the answer.

> Black holes both!

Hmm, boats are called big holes in the water where people (lots of them here in Jersey) throw money. How do you entice those people to throw money at RR equipment. I think its doable, but ownership is key. You and I would not be throwing the kind of money we throw around (you a WHOLE lot more than me no doubt) on our equipment if we did not own it.

The problem is well known, and not just in NJ.

J.R.

I feel some of the above posters pain.

Here is a simple solution to STABILIZE some equipment during which political, economic or group infighting can be resolved.

Rent a pressure washer from Home Depot, cost $50 to $150 depending on rental time and model. Blast the sucker with some TSP or similar cleaner to remove loose rust, paint and grime.

Let dry!

Rent, borrow or buy paint brushes, rollers or a Wagner. Get some industrial primer and have at it! Cost $200 to $400 depending on paint quality and painting method.

You are not painting the Last Supper!!

Cost of a STABILIZED railcar, Priceless.

Scott

Dear Scott,

I think that your approach will only address surface rust. There will still be numerous places for water to enter the carbody, especially around windows, and riveted seams. Passenger cars rust from the inside out, so by the time that you see even a small amount of rust through much damage has already been done.

Likewise, summarily removing all old paint will obliterate the record of previous lettering and paint schemes that can often be traced and used to ensure a higher level of accuracy in the restoration process. Finally, I think that TSP and other cleaners are corrosive, and applying them with a pressure washer will drive it into the carbody, further worsening the situation.

The Strasburg has developed a method for cocooning wood cars that would also be useful for steel cars that is rather non-invasive and has been proven to be rather long lasting.

Tom Cornillie

I see that their may be a potential for this thread to touch one of this forum's perennial third-rails, or for it to drift onto another topic (which greatly complicates archiving). I would ask that we all follow the Moderators’ collective advice regarding Steamtown, and endeavor to provide critical comments be bolstered with constructive ideas on how to improve the situation.

Tom Cornillie

Yes Tom, your right, this topic could erupt into flames in an instant.

I like to use the "KISS" approach. I am very familiar with rust never sleeping.

O.K. skip the power washer, lay a coat of paint on the item and be done with it. This WILL provide some stability, in advance of a more permanent solution.

Documentation is nice but there is enough written about railroading in which one could find out exactly how to paint something down the road. Most items out there are not heading for the Smithsonian!!

I see it a lot, many folks talking but none doing. I visited a railroad site last week to see a new car this group got. Well, it matches the rusted cars that are already have there. Which by the way where like that 3 years ago when I visited. So it blows my mind when folks spend countless hours and resources (money) to obtain new items without preserving the ones they already have.

Strasburg is a "state of the art" operation with tremendous resources and talent. Not many smaller groups have those types of assets.

As J.R. May said, "Lets talk solutions, not just talk about problems".

I offered a "KISS" solution, hopefully someone out there will give it a try.

Scott

p.s. Get out of my way, I have work to do!!!