It is really hard for these guys to gain the respect of a lot of the museum community when they "restore" all kinds of equipment to represent something other than it's history. One has to wonder when the B&O F-40 will be showing up in the pages of the magazines.

Where are these cars refurbished for excursions? Are they in regular use?

First off, I really wish that the prior poster hadn't used the term bash. It has a negative connotation that does not fit the content that has been brought forth with this thread so far. While there is a esprit-de-corps that exists on this board, this gets in the way of objectively reviewing the situation in the way that a prospective benefactor would. In reviewing an appeal for help, a benefactor would examine the merits of a given project and the ability of an organization to bring it to successful completion, and the credibility of the organization bringing the appeal. It is safe to say that the credibility of the URHS is pretty low at this point – which would seriously compromise their ability to successfully attract outside support. Credibility, like a personal credit history, is easy to tarnish but difficult to rebuild. And it will take many years of successfully completing projects for them to rebuild their credibility. Passion does not equal credibility – and many see passion as obscuring objective, rational decision making.

Outside support is necessary for this project – I would estimate shipping costs along to be around $25-30,000 and the restoration to display condition to cost around $400,000. As I and others have mentioned, a restoration and interpretive plan has not been released – which is a very basic element of any successful plan.

I strongly suggest that the URHS partner with another entity if they want to be associated with the successful completion of this project. I mentioned the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania earlier and I stand by that recommendation. However, another option to consider is whether there is a museum that is other than a railroad museum (which I will abbreviate as OTRRM) that would be interested in this project. Examples of such museums would be the Henry Ford Museum, Chicago’s Museum of Science and Industry, Kansas City Union Station Museum, or the Indianapolis Children’s Museum – museums with a broad mission that have taken very good care of the railroad pieces in their respective collections and have been able to garner funds for restoration that far exceed that which has been granted to conventional railroad museums. The 5012 would be an ideal exhibit in such a museum as it offers the opportunity to tell numerous stories while not taking up much space. These stories include the history of mid-century commuter rail travel and how people used local rail service, in addition to the technological history that I mentioned earlier.

I am not familiar with OTRRMs that would be a potential candidate for such a project, but I am sure that there are a few in the NY/NJ metro area.

Being associated with the successful completion of this project by another railroad museum or an OTRRM would be a low-risk way for URHS to begin to rebuild their credibility (akin to a person with a bad credit history taking out a secured credit card).
Likewise, if the URHS is to purchase this car, but not be able to successfully restore it (or even stabilize its condition) it will only further damage their overall credibility.

Tom Cornillie

I can only suggest that anyone interested in a listing of equipment owned and restored by the URHS to go onto their website. There seems to be a lot of pre-conceived opinions from people removed from this area, and I would therefore also suggest you click on to their "Statement on Preservation" that appears to have been up-dated. This may answer some concerns from people of why or why not certain equipment was not restored, and why it was restored in a certain manner.

http://www.urhs.org

As for the refurbished coaches, as with most of the RR groups within the state, we have literally been shut-out of excursions due to the resistance of CSX/NS and connecting railroads to host any kinds of trips due to post-911 liability concerns.

Last I heard, the coaches in question were stored on the Morristown & Erie Railway.

I agree with Josh, it is a matter of the care. In my opinion a museum should look at itself not as "owner" of an item, but rather as a caretaker of something for the public. After all when a company or person donates something to a museum the true intent is to have that item available for future generations to enjoy and study. This comes with a responsibility to provide proper care and upkeep for the item. If the museum is only going to "store" the item then it should be found a better home. There is an argument that it beloved camelback was neglected for many decades. It is too bad something could not be worked out.

This is not an isolated case to one museum. Railroad items being stored and not cared for properly all over run the gambit from paper items to locomotives to large buildings. We as a community have collected more than we can ever care for and we keep getting more.

Tom:

What you propose makes sense. EXCEPT, if the OTRRM is located in a place that was "off-line." In the case of these "other" museums you mentioned, only Chicago's Museum of Science & Industry was served directly by the Erie, although I believe the railroad did make it to Indianapolis using trackage rights. I would think it important that the museum, railroad or otherwise, should be on an Erie Railroad line, even if the particular location was not served directly by an Erie motorcar.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana -which WAS served by the Erie)

Those were only examples of OTRRMs - I do not think that any one of them would be interested in the 5012. However, I suspect that there are one or more established generalist/OTRR musuems in the NY/NJ area that, while not having a railroad exhibit at the moment, could become interested in 5012 if the idea were presented to them in the proper manner.

Tom Cornillie

As to OTRRM's that may have an interest, I would again look at the Wooden Boat magazine (WB) for suggestions. For instance, each issue of WB generally has a last page article on a wooden boat that is in need of a home rather than face a chain saw. Many times these boats are free, but sometimes there is a reasonable purchase fee. The deal is based on the ability of the potential buyer to present a plan on moving the boat, and showing that he has the assets to handle the project.

Based on the WB and OTRRM concepts, I would suggest that there are individuals out there who would be interested in purchasing the 5012 and who can show the means to move it and care for it, but need a place to keep it. That is where a relationship with a OTRRM would be required. Again, though there is a pre-qualification process associated with picking the new owner. Let the OTRRM focus on what it does best - provide space. Let a wealthy owner do what he does best - provide money. Boat yards do not own boats. They only provide a space for owners to keep their boats. Everyone wins.

I would have liked to see this concept be used by the B&O museum as well rather than cutting up rolling stock. Maybe they tried, I'm not sure. At this point I'm just using the 5012 as an example.

J.R.

Mr. Vette,

My comments re: 'finding a home' go directly to the issue of motive. What is the point of saving equipment if it cannot be cared for and displayed in a suitable environment-for ALL TO ENJOY.

That said, IMHO investments in private cars and the like by museums can be only be considered to be elitist in nature. A hot steam locomotive is a better goodwill ambassador than any private car-or a diesel loco.

LSP and P'burg are history. Move on. Having lived in NJ for over fifteen years, I happen to believe that the southern part of the state is the only viable option. To deal with the issue of vandalism, put up a fence and keep your 'jewels' behind it. Consider the fence a cost of doing business in the 21st century.

How about parnering up with an existing shortline or a local EDC or... ?

The URHS web site hows that they are seeking to dispose of the collection located at the power plant. So, why on earth would they be interested in acquiring yet more equipment in the form of the 5012 ?
Where do they plan on dumping it-in a yard or a siding that they can be evicted from on a moments notice ?

Back to the issue of credibility. Start by making an internally generated effort to find a home-or even a secure storage facility. Secure this property with a long term, ironclad agreement.

The next step is to tighten the scope of collection and get rid of the 'ringers.' Seems to me that the DL&W MU's carry a bit more gravitas versus some phony LV units. Any piece that does not have a long-term relationship with a NJ railroad property should go. Sell it , take the cash and and use it to stabilize the relevant pieces.

Develop a solid museum culture instead of playing model trains in 1:1 scale. Banish the railfan mindset (stop re-creating extinct camera fodder)
and those who exhibit that form of behavior from your organization.

Act like the art museum types do-take what you do and yourselves VERY seriously-and eventually the rest of the world will view your organization in that same light.

While the respect of ones' peers is important, one needs to gain the respect of the 'movers and shakers' of our world. Those who can write big checks-or make a phone call to a senior VP on an uncooperative railroad to arrange transportation.

Credibility is a funny beast-it takes years to cultivate and can vanish in the blink of an eye.

Dave

In a final note, I will only say once again, that there are only two options here, and both from the point of whether anyone wants this piece saved. Taking it steps beyond to museum sites, type of restoration, deadlines, etc only prolongs the agony. These points have been haggled on numerous occasions, and nothing gets done. I personally feel that rescuing it from Ohio is the first step of one of many along the way. (Looking forward)

I posted this as a point of information in the continuance of a thread that was discussed a short while ago. A thread posted by someone other than me having concern over the object in question. I gain no satisfaction in the outcome over this piece. It was posted in the spirit of preservation, not for the sake of argument.

I have watched "deals" to "save" this piece of equipment come and go for almost 40 years now. In each case there was the imminent threat that the car might be scrapped if a suitable home could not be found for it, and in each case the deal suddenly fell through and the car remained in Ohio. Sorry but with so many false starts I find it rather difficult to take seriously the threat of it being scrapped this time.

I just had a brainstorm :-)

If the car has a Winton engine, why doesn't a group in Ohio purchase and restore the piece as an example of a Winton powered railcar ?

After all, Winton was based in Ohio.

The new owners may been able to get a deal on Winton parts that are no longer required for the 'Flying Yankee.'

Dave

With both Winton and Electro-Motive Corporation having been based in Ohio during the time period of the gas electric cars you have to wonder why nobody out there wants the 5012. And while permanent indoor storage is very desirable for preservation, there are fairly durable temporary structures available that can be used to protect this type of equipment in the short term to expedite urgently needed work. There have been occasions when EMD engine removals (16 cylinder 567s and 645s) have been done out in the open with a mobile crane, with the prime mover being shipped to a rebuilder, and the locomotive put in a temporary shelter while the roof hatches were off.

From firsthand experience in Ohio I am sorry to have to report that relatively few people there even remember the Winton Engine Company or the Cleveland Diesel Engine Division of General Motors, or know what happened to them or how they are related to each other and to Electro-Motive Corporation.

I am from Ohio, I know the history. Have a railroad to run it on, It would be a perfect fit for our operation. We even have a shop with a crew that could do just about anything needed to restore it. We are 2 hours from the unit. We need a building at the railroad to put it in though. Along with all the other stuff.
The problem. None of the crew work for free. I need the room for paying jobs in the shop. The rialroads money is going to put another 4 miles in service by next year for the railroads 100 year birthday. It will also allow us to run between 2 cities instead of just up and back.
This is all part of our plans. We are also starting to go new directions with big changes in management. Maybe in a year or 2 We could do this. I would love to do it right now but money is tight.
I would love to resotre and run this unit. Anybody want to picth in a help move it to northern Ohio and get there hands dirty or help with fund rasing? Didn't think so. but in the outside chance you do PLEASE contact me.

I noticed that there is to be a "Marion Days" event on August 5 2006 at the Marion, Ohio Union Station with a slide showing session at the station in the evening that is described as bring "your favorite topic".

Possibly a good opportunity for some of the folks in Ohio who have an interest in this car to get together and discuss it?

> My comments re: 'finding a home' go directly to the
> issue of motive. What is the point of saving
> equipment if it cannot be cared for and displayed
> in a suitable environment-for ALL TO ENJOY.

What is the point?? You have a major fallacy here. The focus of finding a home for something must be to preserve the item first, not to ensure it can be enjoyed by all. Yes, some day this may be the case for the item in question, but up front, the focus has to be preservation. Keep the item together so that ten, 15, 20 years from now someone has a chance to restore it and the history it represents. Its not a toy to be played with. Its an artifact. If URHS gives this thing another 20 years on the planet, that is 20 years of OPPORTUNITY to preserve it and the history it carries.

J.R.