To answer my own question, I would have cited CSRM and RMPA-both being connected with their respective states.

The 'ripple effect' is what got those facilities built in Newark that I had refered to in a previous post. The 15,000 people that are going to hit Newark on the night of a Devils game are going to leave a lot of money behind-ticket revenue, refreshment revenue, beads and trinkets,parking-not to mention sales taxes. Some will show up before the game for dinner and drinks at local food establishments-some folks will partake after the event. The ripple effect of of 15,000 people 40 nights a year-not counting the playoffs. Much is this traffic is 'money is no object' expense account traffic.

It shouldn't be forgotten that the Devils have a history at another facility that no doubt was used to develop projections that would justify the states'
commitment to the project. A pretty good history.

And let us not forget, the 'product'-which is the team-is considered in many quarters to be first class. They have won it all a few times in their history-the Stanley Cup.

Now, if the Eastern and Western RR Museum could bring a similar record of accomplishment to a certain locale, I am sure they would get the brass band treatment.

The (NY) Mets and Yankees are both getting new stadia in the next five years. Does anyone realize what the City of New York is throwing into the pot ?

Sad to say, this will never happen. Professional sports team are 'trophy' properties,railroad museums are not.

NH Dave

Well, if it makes you feel any better, here at OERM we had to pay these same types of development fees. Over $70,000 in development and permit fees were paid by the time we got the building permit. A new "transportation infrastructure" fee on development came into being while we were planning the project, adding considerably to the tally, fortunately it was phased in over two years and we only paid at the 50% level. Had we waited another 6 months the total fees on the project would have been much more.

The City is certainly sympathetic to our cause, but at the end of the day local and county fees are relied upon to build infrastructure. When we sought relief on the transportation infrastructure fee, we were advised "this fee is paying to build the roads that bring people to your museum".

In any event, I console myself with the simple truth that the longer we wait the more it will cost. I'm glad we have the building construction behind us. And thank you for the kind words about our project, it certainly has been a long struggle.


http://www.oerm.org/pages/Carhouse%20Seven.html

If I were to be at my most cynical, I'd say that you've drunk the same "laced Kool-Aid" as those government officials who fall for those stadium studies.

In the case of those stadiums that are being used as examples, I've read post-mortem studies that basically refute almost completely the classic argument that building such stadiums reap massive local rewards. The rewards don't come anywhere near the level promised. The jobs delivered are largely part-time and minimum-wage-level. The team has a bad year or two combined with ticket price inflation, and suddenly the restaurants, bars, etc. are ghost towns with tumbleweeds.

These promises were delivered in consultant studies.

Show me a time when consultants like this didn't tell the customer exactly what they wanted to hear ("Bring in the team!"), or, provided you can find said study, when a negative study ever saw the light of day. A scant few of the economic studies are valid, but an awful lot of them truly qualify as "junk science" or "voodoo science." If you explore about a bit, you'll find many examples of promised economic prosperity that failed to flourish as promised. Remember when Atlantic City was going to be the "Las Vegas of the East"? My brother-in-law happens to work with many Vegas entertainers; you can't pay them enough to go there.

In broad principle, I advocate a non-profit museum applying for whatever breaks or tax relief for which it is rightfully eligible, but I would oppose attempts to actively seek the degree of subsidy that professional sports teams demand and get (i.e. "build us a great big museum building and let us use it rent-free for fifty years") strictly on moral and ethical grounds. But, hey, if you're living in an area with a government SO stupid as to buy this line of thinking (say, like a certain Southern city that continues to rebuild in a still-sinking delta), may you get what you wish for, and may it not bite you too hard in the posterior.

So far we have not had to pay any development fees for our long-delayed project, but - surprise - we have to pay sales tax on the materials pirchased for the building, even though we are a non-profit organization.

Our County government requires a current business plan for any non-profit group seeking County funds for a capital project. As part of its review, the grants panel considers the ability of the applicant to sustain the proposed project after the project is complete.

Wesley

In regard to some of the valid comments made regarding state and local regulation, and the difficult operating environment in various locations around the country, it makes me wonder a few things. A few months back I contacted a steel frame building manufacturer that is known nationwide in order to discuss the possibility of building a building to hold four eighty-five foot cars. Although the specific location was left open, this company, provided me a very detailed estimate, based upon photographs of an existing building that they manufactured (that I photographed for them as an example )...

With that being said, I could reasonably estimate the additional costs to enhance the building (upgraded electrical service for 3 phase, concrete in lieu of crushed stone floor, plumbing etc etc )... When it was all done and said, between the pre-engineered building company, and industry standard estimates for the enhancements, I had a highly detailed estimate. As the location was in question, some issues such as Florida building codes, or snow loads in the mid-west had to be left open, as a suitable property was not located at that time.

Also unknown was the land procurement cost. However the trackwork ( include turnouts, ties, joint bars, ballast etc ) were again estimated based upon reasonable industry standards.

With all that being said, it was not that difficult to have some reasonably firm estimates, and realistic budgets, that would include the enclosure to house four cars.

The same process, no matter if its in White Fish Montana, or Fort Lauderdale Florida, must take place. Its all a matter of how individual or museums want to allocate their money. If you don't mind painting that wooden FGE reefer every 2 years, then the money on the building is apparently not a concern... However if you want to paint it once, stick it inside, and not mess with it again, so you then allocate your money again to another project, it only makes sense.

Some equipment is better suited for outdoor display, ( steel freight cars, etc )... however when you look at the condition of the average heavyweight Pullman stored outside, that has been out of service for 40 years, with wooden window sash, vents in the roof, no heating or operational AC system, etc... Most are an eyesore, with little chance of recover unless it gets covered, and covered soon.

I personally think its time to see beyond today. No matter if its not a full enclosure, its essential to get the water, snow and sun off of these objects.
Its a matter of saying "out of these 25 cars outside, these 12 must be covered".... Not all, per say, however understanding that these cars, locomotives, can no longer continue to see this prolonged exposure. ( not to mention that the average heavyweight Pullman ( for example ) doesn't even make an attractive display anymore due to its rust, floor rot, etc etc...

So, perhaps I am wrong, but how much longer can we neglect the real "treasures", that remain outdoors, and open to the elements. I think everyone knows the answer.


Dean Levin

Can anyone name an exisiting good sized railroad museum that is viewed in the same light ? A museum that is not only well-patronized by visitors-but is supported in one form or another by government and corporate largesse. ....


Howard P.
RMNE[/quote]

Howard -- I assume you mean private not-for profit museums. Certainly the publicly owned ones are supported by government (taxpayer0 funds every year at appropriations time. Examples are: Steamtown, CSRM, RMPA, Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, CATS, Traveltown ( ok,so maybe not lots of support), etc.

I think most support for No-for-Profits has been in the form of grants for specific capital projects, not ongoing operating support. There have been lots of federal dollars funnelled by states via the ICETEA set-asides. And I am pretty sure substantial funding for the B&O Museum for the recostruction effort was provided by the State of Maryland and a bond issue was placed on the ballot in Baltimore City that was passed by the voters.

However railroad museums never see anything like the recent $400,000 per year grants from both Baltimore City and Baltimore County so the two local Art Museums could eliminate admission fees!

We'll find out soon in one case. The new Cross-County Connector Interstate highway just approved and funded in Mongomery County, Maryland will obliterate the National Capital Trolley Museum's terminal area, including Barns, Visitor Center, and much of the trackage. Admittedly not a typical case, since they are tenants of the County Park System.

In general, I think being displaced by a federally-funded highway could be the best thing that happens to any organization, since "Functional Replacement" could result in something much more substantial. Nobody spends money better than the feds.

Seems to me that there's no question that indoor(preferably climate controlled) storage is mandatory for long term preservation.
I believe our two biggest challenges are;
1. Declining interest; anyone who is at all active in any phase of railway preservation/operation will testify to the fact that our ranks are thinning noticeably and the median age of those involved is accelerating at an alarming rate. We need to work at attracting many more youngsters into our "passion" or attrition will in essence end this industry.
2. We're often our own worst enemies. The NJ Museum debacle is a classic sad example. Here we had a classic fully restored, historically very significant rr terminal complete with a 15 track train shed,smack in the shadow of two of America's premier tourist attractions (the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island) and immediatly adjacent to a new multi-million dollar(Corporately sponsored) science museum just waiting to come back to life as the active rr facility it was for over a century(with a taxpayer investment of nearly $50 Million already in the rr Terminal building) and the folks representing the railfan community decided to try and put it in a place that never had ANY chance of garnering the Corporate sponsorship interest needed to make it succeed. And thier whole rationale was that LSP was too close to salt water and it would be bad for the exhibits! I suspect that the real primary motivation was that they didn't reside near LSP and the thought of frequent trips there was unappealing??
That decision was of course the death knell for NJ ever having a meaningful Transportation museum and the equipment they so zealously "protected" from the salty air of LSP is now scatterred hither and yon around the State slowly but surely deteriorating.
We need to work hard to try and think things through logically and go with the solutions that have the highest chance of success-not based on our own selfish petty issues!
Ross Rowland

Not sure if this fits your bill quite, but I'd nominate the Gold Coast RR Museum in Miami, which as I recall is right next to the Miami Zoo (lots of drive-by traffic, schools, etc.) and is also a tenant of Miami-Dade County Parks and Recreation or whatever it's called. I think the land itself was also deeded over to them from the former military installation (blimp base).

What's the arrangement with NJ Museum of Transportation in Allaire State Park in New Jersey?

Of course, any such tenant arrangement in a municipal/state/etc. park is open for debate on exactly who is benefitting by how much, depending on such things as rent/lease or lack thereof.

Can't speak as to recent history, but Gold Coast RR in its original incarnation operated on the blimp base which was then owned by the University, called "south campus" and far beyond the fringes of civilization in an area more densely populated with gators than humans - remember, this was the late'50's into the early '60's at the time and I was too young at the time to take an active role.

Later, the museum moved to Fort Lauderdale, across the street from the airfield, and ran on a feeder track into Port Everglades between FEC and SAL if memory serves.

I was long gone to real life when it moved back into what now was suburban Miami, and Crandon Park Zoo expanded into MetroZoo, and both were united at the new place.

Fedbucks after a hurricane provided resources for GCRR, and apparently had a lot to do with reconstructing the visitors center at the Blimp base.

I visited there a couple years ago, and got the impression that the government, the zoo, and the railroad were not at all working cooperatively, and the railroad was getting the short end of the shafting. Perhaps those involved can comment from the inside as to whether those impressions were correct.

So, insofar as I know, and I may well be mistaken, the only property actually owned by the RR museum was in Fort Lauderdale, and they are tenants under some sort of agreement at the blimp base today?

dave

Our County government and our landlord (parks department) has been working closely with us for the last 10 years in anticipation of the Inter-County Connector. The director of parks even encouraged us to "think big" as we evaluated all of our options. With their support, we are relocating within the park we now occupy and will retain use of about half of our present demonstration railway which will connect to a new 2500 foot extension that connects to new facilities.

Of course, we have yet to sit down with the relocation folks at State Highway to discuss their financial contribution for the above inconvenience. So time will tell in that regard.

Wesley

I don't know about the past, but I would consider the current Electric City Trolley Museum's ride to be one of the best trolley rides in the country. The finishing touches are being made to a new restoration facility at the far end of the run. The ride is being extended to a baseball park - making for a 10 mile roundtrip and a destination. I would think this move was a good thing.

It all boils down to a single word; Rateables! If it does not produce something to be taxed, municipalities are not interested in it.

In our case, the old PRR railyard will become a super wawa because it will produce taxes right away, whereas a restored railyard won't. But, no one is going to travel to see a super wawa but they will to see a restored railyard and a county historic museum. Oh, and while they are there, they very well might stop in the super wawa across the street to buy gas and get something to eat. So everyone wins but the politicians are very short sighted and cannot figure it out.

We erected a huge shelter over our N6B and the township screamed and hollared that it was ugly so we had to take it down. The N6B cahssis was sandblasted and primed last September but since the tarps kept blowing off, now is beginning to rust again. Too many projects, too few volunteers and wa-ay too little money.

So it looks like the answer is that we save what we can, where we can, when we can. No government entity is going to pitch in more than a token sum because it is not popular with the tax payers.

Sad, but true!

Later!
Mr. Ed

Sandy,

No, I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. Actually, I agree with all of your points.

What I wrote was a re-statement of the 'official party line.' Nothing more-and nothing less. I know the explanation is all bullsh_t.

In the last ten or so years, the S of NJ decided to lavish some attention on two of its' 'bastard stepchildren', which would be Newark and Camden.

Camden got an aquarium and the the battleship IOWA. Newark got the PAC and the minor league baseball stadium. While Newark was already on the way back (from the riots of almost forty years ago) Camden is still an 'urban jungle.'

I mentioned the Devils for a reason. The Devils have (what some might consider) a pretty nice home in the Meadowlands. The team was put up for sale, and some mega-rich new monied yuppie offered to buy it-with one caveat. He wanted a new stadium-in Newark.

Can anyone guess what his real interest is ? REAL ESTATE. Well, the state blinked and he got his new arena in downtown Newark. I note that one of the NJ Nets were sold to a guy who deals in REAL ESTATE-and will move the team to Brooklyn, NY. The city is kicking in some serious bucks here, too.

Now, there is going to be any empty arena in the Meadowlands-which is going to be torn down-while the football Giants also build a new stadium right next to the old one.

The Mets are owned by a guy who deals in REAL ESTATE-and they are also getting a new stadium. The Yankees are getting a new stadium, too. Once again- the city and city and state are kicking in some money-some big money.

That leaves Madison Square Garden, owned by Cablevision. They want a new stadium, too.

My point ? This hunger for new stadia is a disease of our time, no different than when the 'Master Builder'-Robert Moses-ran amok in NYC many years ago.

All of sorts of private interests are able to get the pols to do their bidding for them-at our collective expense.

Dave

ADM,

I think I would argue the opposite. All fo these are in better shape post-move.

Steamtown is in a much more stable home with multiple routes to operate on.

The Philly trolleys have a first class excursion route, and for the first time, a restoration shop (opening this year), indoor display space and a means of regular ridership (baseball games).

The RMNE has a real home, and for the first time, their own restoration shop and a line they control.

The Edaville trains are no worse a place, and many would argue a better place.

The Forney musem, by all accounts I have heard, improved.

All in all, moving is a very good idea if the outcome is as rosy as these!

Rob