As to permits and such, when NJMT built the storage building and car barn addition, we had to pay for all the proper permits and building inspections. I did not feel the fees were a problem and are just part of the process. This is in Wall, NJ which is a growing town with all the normal tax issues in NJ. If fees are required for anyone else, then pay them. An organization is not making friends with the community when it tries to avoid the normal fees. The Wa Wa will always win.
J.R.

> What's the arrangement with NJ Museum of Transportation
> in Allaire State Park in New Jersey?

Current 10 year extension should run out in 2013 as far as I remember. If Corzine remains governor, there could be a problem.

With something like half the stuff they had in Vermont. It's definitely a better location and facility, and a better long-term future. But compared to what Blount put together, there are definitely times when I long for a cross-Vermont run again. Multiple routes? They had that in Vermont, too, as I recall.



It may be better for the stuff as it stands now, I fully agree. But there's definitely some reasons that the Friends of the Philadelphia Trolley brought their PCC to Baltimore and helped the Baltimore Streetcar Museum stock up on Philly PCCs. I really don't have a dog in that fight, in spite of my work with/for the BSM, so.............



I don't know the details; I'll take Howie's word for it.



I didn't see Edaville except in photos; I did visit Portland and blundered by complete accident into a steam ride. Again, debatable. I saw a good ride (Penn's Landing Trolley in Philly) thrown out of a "good home", so........

Dean:

If you don't mind, I would be very interested in finding out what prices were quoted for the building you described for 4 85' cars.

My own take on that situation is that when FofPT made their decision more that a year ago, the restoration shop (built in less than a year) was still a nebulous political promise on a standard gauge line that still has no loops or wyes. The PCCs in question were single ended and broad gauge. FofPT claimed that they had back then found a museum with indoor space for the oldest PCC, 2054. Scranton still has to do some pruning to fit everything indoors.
Complicating things and outside opinions, the Electric City Trolley Museum Association, the present name of the many times moved volunteer group, must transfer ownership of the cars upon arrival at Scranton to the Electric City Trolley Museum & Station, a government entity, which could be subject to any changing political winds someone might want to fear.

You know of such a place? Do they have old stock homes that are not being torn down for glass-covered office buildings, or an "old-guard" which paternally believe they know "what's best" for the community, and support only those projects? A community which believes in and support their youth, including the school district within, rather than saying all kids are "hoodlums" and vote down every tax that supports things like library's and said schools. One that believes that, in presenting their history, they should cover as many aspects as possible, not just a single myopic view, at the deteriment of all others?

'Cause if you do, PLEASE let me know.

TJ

As a local politician, I must agree. In my own borough, one of the local councilors is against the local non-profit bible college, for fear that it could muster enough votes to defeat her. The fear doesn't change her opinions, she just hopes they don't vote. The opposition party is more tolerant, and solicits the votes.
In Scranton, both parties seem to think that the voters can stand the Trolley Museum. The recent change in power may have been based on a scandal at the prison. An attempt to link the expenses at the county visitors' center and store to the election backfired, when the other party mentioned that it made a profit.

Not the same thing by a long shot TJ.

I'd look at the trouble and expense Carson City is going through to build a railroad to contract to an operating group, and the several cities wanting to restore electric streetcar service to historic areas, the move by communities in Maryland and Maine to reactivate threatened tourist railroads, etc.

All these municipalities (and not a thorough list by any means) are investing in making railroad preservation happen, although the motivation behind it is purely economic.

Why not put your museum under one municipalities economic development umbrella, rather than continually fight another municipality with other development plans, and constantly lose?

On another note, much of the other stuff you allude to is part and parcel of a societal move away from personal (and parental) responsibility. Our choices affect our communities, and if we don't care how, unfortunately shortsighted things happen.

Every public school system in the country would be so good that costly private schools could not compete with them if we simply enforced parental accountability for the actions of their children, and removed with penalty any families that didn't effectively manage. After all, there has to be a native source for unskilled labor, so we can effectively remove the cheap labor argument against border security.

dave

Folks,

Was out at the Western Railway AMuseum where we are finishing a 108' by 300' steel frame building and a 33' water tank (with a new well) with a back up Diesel pump in case the AC goes out.

This will get the bulk of out cars indoors. But we have to do it again! Our Car barn 1 is 35 years old and a wooden pole barn does not have much life left in it. It least the fire system is going to be extended to it.

A couple of years ago, we traded off a bunch of Diesel equipment that was periferal to out main collection. Less to care for and less to cover!

I am glad to report that there is a building boom in railroad museums today. Orange Empire, as mentioned above, but also Illinois Railway Museum, The Museum of Transport and even the tiny Society for the Preservation of Carter Brothers resources are now building new storage/display barns. One of the Canadian Museums as well as their National Museum at Delson, Quebec have new buildings.

I hope that they are able to continue their programs. If it isn't under cover it isn't! A large collection in need of help is at the Seashore Trolley Museum, they have not built a barn in many years.

Ted Miles

Ah, but if the entire STATE that your in is in such poor financial condition that finding ANY municipality that would try to put you under their umbrella is nary to impossible, as they are fighting to keep what little economic tax base is left, its not such a stretch. I suppose the Steamtown idea of switching state's is possible, but I remember going to Steamtown in 1985/86, and it seems to me that the move alone is not what saved Steamtown. Part of the answer, but some other things happened in order to keep it there.

And contrary to popular belief, putting yourself under a City's economic umbrella guarantees nothing, other than constant vigilance. In my experience, even if you DO put yourself under one municipalities umbrella, there is no guarantee that the next politic change, even in a City Manager-based government, won't try and undo much of what you've worked for. And city's have budgets where, very often, the museum's libraries, etc are the first items to be sliced.

Cheap labor argument against our SOUTHERN/ SOUTHWESTERN border security. Lets be specific please, shall we? Thousands of garbage trucks concealing god knows what under hundred's of Harvey's wrappers headed for Michigan landfills has little to do with cheap labor. Funny, but ask our border guards at the Blue Water Bridge whether there is equilibrium when it comes to border protection, and you'll find that they feel border protection means something entirely different to them versus their Southwestern brethren.

TJG

Hello all,

It is interesting how the last few posts bear no resemblence to the topic of this post - how to best preserve the equipment that railroad museums already owned. Also, lets try to remain vigilant against allowing hot-button issues (such as illegial discrimination) from the media to pull discussions askew.

I don't have time to write a full response to Dean's worthwhile post, but I do have a resource and a related question.

1) Are there any musuems that calculate depreciation on the items that they have in their collections, especially those that are stored outside.

2) For estimating building costs, I have this model useful:

http://www.aacei.org/technical/BuildingModel.shtml -

I believe that I posted a link to this here before, but the search function has not found that thread.

I think it would be most useful if details about recent buildings (dimensions, construction methods, and costs) could be posted (or better yet, submitted as news breifs - or compiled for an article) so that we, as an industy, develop our knowledge base of this topic.

Tom Cornillie

In regards to building costs, I contacted a major manufacturer of pre-engineered steel buildings, to obtain specific pricing based upon a design that is in use on an Arkansas short line railroad. Photographs of the buildings were forwarded to the manufacturer ( who also fabricated these buildings )...

With that being understood, some variables occurred in the engineering that would be necessary to meet snow loads, or the State of Florida revised building codes ( hurricane prevention ). However the design again was based upon pre-engineered structures on an active Arkansas shortline.

The price ran approximately 15.00-18.00 per square foot for a full framed steel building. The dimensions produced were 40' x 120'... ( 4800 sq ft )... or 72,000.00- 76,000.00 ...erected... ( however erection fees vary greatly on states... example : the northeast is higher than the southeast... This cost included the engineering, the delivery and the fabrication. In addition were overhead doors, undergoung utilities, permitting, trackwork, and of course land procurement. Reinforced concrete flooring was an alternate priced at $17,500.00 which included jacking pads. Base cost included graded dirt floor.. Crushed stone was an alternate at 4000.00...

The basic building structure alone, not including trackwork was estimated by a contractor at approximately 120,000.00.... which included 3 phase power, storm and sanitary piping and permitting in Arkansas... 3 phase power would be run underground and spotted at 4 locations, sub-metered for 4 cars.

Trackwork had variables regarding total distance, and quantity of turnouts, however it was budgeted at 35,000.00 which included two indoor tracks 200 feet of double track space outside the building and one turn out.

Total cost proposed and budgeted was $165,000.00... plus land procurement.

This scope was only priced with one pre-engineered building company, along with their erector and subcontractors, so prices may vary, depending on state, local contractors, etc etc.

Proposed use is solely passenger car storage.

How mant cars will fit in the $165 K building. What are the dimensions of the cars?

Wesley

The Western Railway Museum is building a new car house, about 100 feet wide x 350 feet long, six tracks.

The buiilding is steel, fire-rated (wall panels are two sheets of steel with
fiberglass insulation between them). It's somewhat higher since we had to install trolley wire over the tracks.

We also had to build a fire-protection system with a 200,000-gallon storage tank since we have no water source except our two wells.
(The fire system is a good investment anyhow, since it has hydrants and
can be expanded to the rest of the facility.)

Total cost will be about $2 million.

We're starting to use a rough estimate of $1000 per foot to figure covered
car storage cost for a piece of equipment.

The use will be mainly storage, with guided tours for the public.

It would have been lots cheaper if we kept the public out!

http://www.wrm.org/about/news.htm

-Al Stangenberger