Check out these aerial views from Local.Live.com. Use the wheel on your mouse to zoom in on individual hulls (or zoom using the large/small building icons). Use the N,S,E,W buttons to look at the same scene from different angles.
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2& ... ne=2302652

Charles, I am sorry to hear you lost money on the NOBSKA. If the group had started with a viable business plan with reasonable and attainable goals that might have been avoided for you and a lot of other people too.

I have managed some fairly large transportation industry projects, and in my humble opinion the goals in the NOBSKA project were very unrealistic. I hope the COLUMBIA group fares better.

MX

Actually, the ferry is right next to the coal dumper. It is the pier north of the ferry. You are right, it is NW not SW of Witte's.

The Local Live 3D view posted by Stephen leads to the great look at the dumper.

Rob

I was quite turned off by the whole approach. I didn't
see any clear thinking here. If this is their business
plan I cannot see success. If I gave you the boat
fully restored, can you even see being able to
pay for the fuel, professionals in the crew and
whatever other running expenses occur?
Perhaps somebody on the list who knows the
Waverly guys in the UK could comment on
what it takes to run their show.

What the Columbia does have going for her in New York is a much greater population and tourism base to draw upon than she would have in Detroit, and better scenery along the Hudson than the Detroit river has to offer. To misquote Frank Sinatra, if she can make it anywhere, she can make it there.

The impression I get from the group's website is that it was rather hastily put together so they would have something to show when the announcement of her acquisiton hit the press. I wouldn't expect it to offer much insight into thier business plan at this time. However, if they were able to persuade the National Trust for Historic Preservation to back them in purchasing the boat, I'm guessing they have done their homework.

On the other hand, if this doesn't work out and she continues to rot, she's probably better off rotting in Detroit, in fresh water where people remember and love her even if they can't afford to do anything about it. Historically the East Coast hasn't been kind to its passenger steamers, and I doubt a non-operational Columbia will last long out here.

From my observations on seeing PS Waverlly in operation back in 1979, and since, is that the boat gets around to various ports in the UK. The business model reminds me of the Southern's steam programs back in the day. Like SR's excursions, Waverly does not stay in one place too long. I believe this creates some demand to catch a ride while you can before the show moves on.

It would be an interesting model for Columbia to follow on the east coast. Imagine an excursion season with calls in Washington, Norfolk, Philadelphia and Boston, plus one-way moves (as in Independence Ltd) between ports. Of course, the operators would need to develop a relationship with appropriate sponsors in each city as SR did with NRHS and RRE chapters. It could work with the Steamship Historical Society's network of chapters. But extended ops in the salt air are going to be hard on the boat's structure.

Wesley

Rememer Ross and his comment on all the folks in
the NYC metro area and he couldnt fill the seats.
The boat ride is similar but likely needs to sell more
seats per ride. Remember the Day Line did this
bit for many years before calling it quits.
As for coastal work, can the boat deal with it?
Sure Fall River Line did it but is this boat built
to withstand the seas? How does it desalinize?

My comments are only to establish what the
project will need to content with. Id be the
first on line to buy a ticket. But these things
are often pretty heavy on the overhead.
Remember too UK has lottery money to
help so many of their tourist attractions along.

There has been so many more postings in this string today that I felt compelled to offer some additional observations. I don't mean to get anyone upset with me, but there needs to be some common sense and rational thinking applied to large and potentially expensive restoration projects, particularly in the marine transportation field, but also in railroad equipment preservation.

The pieces of equipment that we all enjoy so much and want to restore were for the most part economic tools. They were built to perform a particular task and in most cases they performed it very well. and some of these impressive machines acquired a large following of dedicated and enthusiastic admirers along the way. But they were retired for one reason or another, sometimes because they became too expensive to run, sometimes because better machines were developed, sometimes because they just ran until they could not be supported any more.

Bringing these machines back to display or operate is a wonderful and commendable goal, but it needs to be approached with caution. Soliciting money from the public for a project that is unrealistic to start with, and fails spectacularly amid newspaper and television coverage, can have a much more widespread effect than just on that one project alone. The NOBSKA was a prime example of this. Bringing back an 80 year old coastal steamship that had been retired several decades ago and then gutted for use as a restaurant, with a plan of putting her back into service on open waters in competition with much newer and more efficient vessels, was at very least an unrealistic goal. I wonder how many of the people who contributed in good faith to this effort are likely to be contributors to future projects of this magnitude?

Spectacular and highly publicized restoration failures hurt everybody. There unfortunately is just not enough money to save everything out there that has historical significance. Projects need to have reasonable and attainable goals so that they end in success stories that generate some positive press, not widespread newspaper coverage of the equipment being cut up after an ill-advised and over-extended restoration effort fails.

My apology to mxdata for taking a portion of what he wrote out of context:

I believe that this point also applies to the issue of attracting and retaining volunteers.

An ongoing pattern of successes (no matter how small) are what motivates 'em to keep coming back...for more.

Dave

I have heard this before from elsewhere as well. The Coast Guard said they were blocking the channel, so Witte had to clear some of them out.

Some of them were towed a half mile to the west, and deposted on a stretch of shore on the other side of the oil terminal. Here is a view of them:

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qrpgy88tch5v&style=o&lvl=1&scene=2308869

The double ended vessel is the steam ferry Astoria. One of these might be the 1919 tug BASCOBEL which came up in our conversation of Witte's yard back in 2003:

http://www.aerialarts.com/Gallery_/MacLean_Gallery_One/Maclean_1/maclean_1_4.html

Stephen; thank you for the link to Windows Live Local. Absolutely amazing images; wish I had this years ago. You can zoom in close enough to make out the sunken Ford Taurus in the center of the picture that is also in one of O'Boyle's photographs. There is a steam pump left in the hulk of the Astoria; it is almost visible in these photographs.

I have not had time in the evening to pull up the maps on my website that identify most of the vessels over the years; but will post it soon.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

OK, we're really wandering off-topic. Can someone offer a brief history of Witte's "collection"? Why is this stuff still around?

Wesley

My understanding is that a lot of the steam powered stuff, including tugs and ferries, were retired in the span of a few short years during the 1960s-1970s. Witte bought them all for scrapping; but I guess bought more at once than he could break up, and stuff started stacking up in his yard.

Here is a view of the yard from about 1978:

http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/stea ... ttem~2.jpg

It was at this point that the yard was beginning it's slow decline after a three-day fire in 1977, which gutted the ferry AMERICAN LEGION and scorched several of the surrounding vessels. The Coast Guard ordered that the yard be cut back because it was encroaching on the main channel; several of the ferries and barges were either moved to other locations (as noted), or scrapped.

The next arial photograph is from mid 1980s to the mid 1990s and was taken by Frank Duffy:

http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/stea ... ttem~3.jpg

The yard is slowly deminishing; but it still thrives. This was the period Shaun O'Boyle and Barry Masterson took their pictures; Shaun has also taken several since.

The next arial photograph is from the mid 1990s:

http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/stea ... ttem~1.jpg


Realize that by this time many of the hulks have been their 30+ years; they were beginning to collaspe and sink into the muck.

The next picture I have is a recent Frank Duffy photograph:

http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/stea ... ttem~4.jpg

The yard in this picture appears pretty much like it does today. BTW; This yard was one of the inspirations for my Surviving World Steamship CD-ROM.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a


Surviving World Steam Project

folks,

You are making some good points.

Some more information:

The Paddlewheel Preservation Society is a non-profit that owns three ships, the side wheel Kingswear Castle, the screw steamer Blairmore and of course the last ocean going paddle steamer in the world the Waverley!

They have their members to act as core volunteers and as pointed out the Heritage Lottery has put big bucks (pounds) into the Waverley and maybe the others.

If any of you are in the UK for trains, look for the steam boats on the lakes and the salt water harboars. It is a great heritage that still operatess out there in Great Britain!

The Windemere Steamboat Museum is another organization that is well worth a visit.
Ted Miles

I left a picture out of my time sequence. This picture represents from about the mid-1960s up to the fire aboard the American Legion. It shows the yard at the height of it's "glory"; it was probably at this state when the Coast Guard ordered that some hulks be done away with because they were blocking the channel. Note also that the coal dumper is visible in the upper right hand corner of the picture:



Someone can correct me if I am wrong; but I believe one reason that some many boats ended up here in such a short period of time is that one or more bridges linking Staten Island with the mainland were finished. They rendered a bunch of carfloats and ferries obsolete overnight; also, the American Legion and her sister Staten Island ferries were replaced by another generation of Staten Island ferries; although some of her sister ships were held in reserve.

Finally, it is appropiate to mention Witte's yard for more reasons than the Nobska-New Bedford connection. Out of all of the vessels sent to Witte's yard; only one that I am aware of made it into preservation ... New York Central Tug #16.

It would truely be ironic if both vessels were scrapped so close in time; but it would be even more ironic if the hulks we see in Witte's yard today outlasted both of these "preserved" vessels. They are vivid proof that there is more to preservation than merely "rescueing" something; long term care and funding plans are important as well. Otherwise, we are only prolonging the scrapping process.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project

The cost being quoted in the newspapers for removing New York Central #16 neatly from the restaurant parking lot in Buzzards Bay, Massachusetts and transporting it to some other location nearby seems to be running between $250K and $500K. That is about 1/8th the price of the smallest house on Nantucket. There are numerous celebrities living nearby, including major network news anchor persons, singers and entertainers, and politicians who could take this out of their pocket change and most likely get a tax writeoff by donating it to a nonprofit group, but saving tugboats just isn't their kind of "thing".

If it does not get moved somewhere else for donation to a museum, CVS would end up having to bear the full cost of the demolition and removal of the debris, so you would think that it would be in their own best interests to disassemble it neatly and transport and donate it to get at least some tax writeoff to partially cover the cost of its disassembly.

So all these things considered, and particularly in light of its being in the State of Massachusetts, it seems likely that the tug will end up getting scrapped.