http://www.saludagrade.org/

Website for the Carolina Heritage Line, a local activist group that wants to preserve, and possibly operate excursions upon, the famed Southern Railway's Saluda Grade between Asheville, NC and Spartanburg, SC, embargoed since 2004 but apparently rail-banked by the states. Photos elsewhere on the website show one washout already on the famed 4.89% grade.

To purposely attempt to operate pssgr. service on a nearly 5% grade is even more ludicrous than the plans to operate the 2100 on a 3.5% grade!
Anybody who has mountain railroaded will tell you flat out-FORGET IT!!!
Ross Rowland

I'm sure the kindly fellas at Cass, West Va. would take serious issue with your proclamation, as would the folks at Mt. Washington, N.H. >;-D

And I seem to recall proposals for passenger shuttles on both the ex-PRR Madison Hill in Madison, Ind. (5.89%--steepest on any Class 1, as I recall) and the Washington County RR in Vermont (Ex-Barre & Chelsea, with 5-9% grades), PLUS trips I rode on the West Va. Northern peppered with 4%+ grades and a switchback.

In all seriousness, having perused the Saluda website a bit more thoroughly, it appears that the efforts towards passenger service are twofold: 1) possible Amtrak passenger service between Asheville, Spartanburg, Columbia, etc. (far-fetched, admittedly, but hardly impossible) and 2) some sort of tourist service in the vicinity of the grade. A big steamer hauling a big train regularly? Yes, ludicrous. A Shay on a couple cars? Not so bad. An Edwards motor car (founded in N.C.!)? Almost a serious contender.

Not to mention Norfolk Southern as they did operated passenger excursions over Saluda with the 611.

I guess they were "luducrous" for doing so.

:-)



ps, before someone gets into semantics about the difficulties the 611 had in topping the grade, remember she wasn't designed to haul 25+ passenger cars over a 5% grade. Had she had a more managable 8-12 cars she would have made it no problem.

611 never took more than 5 cars up the hill, and stalled with 5. I believe the last trip, in October 1994, had four. The rest were always detached and hauled up by diesels.

JAC

Any time I see comments like this I have to wonder -- how the heck did railroads manage it on a regular basis for over a hundred years? The Carolina Special operated over Saluda on a regular basis (I think it was a daily train?) into the 1960s.

Steam would be fun, but isn't necessary these days. A pair of Geeps and three or four coaches would do just fine. You might even be able to do it with a pair of Es or Fs, although I think I'd want something with extended-range dynamics. Making the whole line a tourist railroad, with a museum in the old Hayne Shops, would be fantastic. Expensive and rather unlikely, yes, but practical.

The major article on Saluda by Frank Clodfelter in Trains years ago (I'm tempted to say 1985 or thereabouts) showed how: a 4-8-2 on the front and a 2-10-2 on the rear upgrade. Considering that in later years many states passed laws against cabooses being occupied when helper horsepower exceeded a certain number, I kind of seriously doubt that rear helpers would be allowed on any modern passenger train. I once saw the spectacle of NINE locomotives, passenger and freight, on the point of a 18-car MARC special to Oakland, Md.

Truth be told, about the only "distributed power" that would stand a chance in the modern environment would be either RDCs (which I doubt could handle 5% with out a heck of a running start) or souped-up Colorado Rail Car DMUs.

Given that the line in question appears to still be owned by Norfolk Southern and has been retained for strategic reasons, and given the hazards associated with the grade, I think any proposal to operate excursions would be a “tough sell” with NS. This is one serious piece of railroad, and it won't be cheap or easy to operate.

In the meantime if you want to see and hear a steam locomotive blasting up a mountain grade in the southeast, head for Dollywood (4% grade) or Tweetsie (5%). It may all be fun and games for the kids back on the train, but up in the cab it’s the Real Deal.

Alan Maples

I'd like to slightly amend my above admonition. Based on the above learned posts I'm persuaded that regularly scheduled pssgr. service over Saluda will commence on the afternoon of the first day that elephants commence flying!
Ross Rowland

Is that correct? Tweetsie is a 5% grade? I have never been there, but maybe should make the effort.

Others on this board are probably better acquainted with Tweetsie than I am . . . I can't cite a reference, only my recollection of what I was told, that the grade maxes out at about 5%. If you ride the train you will notice that they slow to a crawl at the summit; when the engine hits the level spot they check the water glass and are prepared to stop immediately before starting downhill if the water looks low.

Tweetsie's railfan weekend is scheduled for September 9 & 10.

Alan Maples

I second Ross's statement, but for slightly different/additional reasons. There is not an operator in the lower 48 that could operate that line safely. It would cost more to maintain than it could take in....equipment would suffer as would track infrastructure and someone would end up getting hurt.
Wouldn't you say Mr. Rowland?

Jason is absolutely right. The wear and tear on equipment operating on a regular basis on anything north of 1% is horrendous and the costs escalate expodentially with each .25% of grade. Add the extreme safety issues and its so far out of any reality as to be truly laughable.
I would guess the costs would exceed the achieveable revenues by at least a 4:1 ratio???
Ross Rowland

Yet C&TS operates on 4% daily & Guayaquil & Quito in Ecuador has some grades over 5%.

There's a lot of other things that can 'get you' besides the grade, not the least of which is retained NS ownership of the corridor.

Fast forward to 'Worst Case', it happens, an accident happens, and their are injuries. Nonprofit's insurance is probably adequate but immediately tapped, Hmmm.. NS still owns this property??? Deep pockets! That's a far worse problem than the 5% for feasibility, surprise NS knows this, so until they are clear the deal never happens anyway. If they want to keep the corridor 'railbanked' strategically they won't do that either.

I've seen regular operations over some pretty steep grades, but the expenses climb in direct relationship; wear and tear on the equipment (brake shoes every trip??) track wear, fuel, supplies, etc. Cass does a marvelous job of handling an packed train daily on 9-11% (depends who measures) but every car pair has a brakeman on it to handle the handbrakes coming back down, and they are employees, not volunteers, so add it up. If I remember correctly, C&TS at least stations employees through the train at handbrakes for the same reason. Georgetown Loop handles trains every day over a very short, tough piece of track and has to plan and train employees for handling trains over it.

There's another intangible here- ask yourself why do YOU think it would be an attraction? Riding on the train, or watching the train climb the hill from trackside? Every successful tourist railroad with a steep grade also has an advantage of successfully showcasing the grade - you can see it, hear it, smell it, feel it, while on board the train, not just watching it on the hill as a bystander. Madison, while steeper than heck, is a straight ramp, not even a curve on it. If you're in a coach behind a diesel, slightly more exciting than an elevator ride. Wide open in Cass, Georgetown, etc., you get the best show possible from the coach seat itself.

We look the same way at big bridges, which can just be a complete killer for restoration and maintenance costs vs. rider attaction factor. Or little bridges, if they just happen to be a drawbridge over an active channel!

I'm not sure that a 'steep grade' by itself is enough to draw sufficient continued ridership to keep an operation going to others than just railfans knowledgeable about the history. I haven't been there, so I don't know, but those are the kinds of issues that can get you worse than just 5%.