I have bitten my tongue countless times over issues such as the following, but it looks like RyPN is the only place where I can hope to engage in a civil discussion about matters such as those we've mentioned.

Whether it's the asethetics of a certain locomotive in question or the validity and plausibility of the operation at hand, I find that regardless of how much we are "in the know" about an operation, an operator, or a locomotive and/or rolling stock, it is incumbent upon all of us in the railroad and railroad preservation industry with something constructive to say to be vigiliant, mindful, and respectful of our fellow partners in the business.

Having said that, I worry that if any operation fails, it hurts ALL of us. It could be Strausburg, it could be Golden Pacific, it could be Steamtown--whatever woes one organization suffers, it reflects upon all of us. While many are quick to criticize and flame in an instance where failure or discontent is noted, there is little constructive dialogue thrown in the mix and if there is, it succumbs to the presence of the less productive noise.

There is a problem here: The willingness of organizations and those within them to do any talking at all (and one cannot blame them for the woes some incur for discussing their work and allegiences). If the true movers and shakers don't want to get involved, we're all in trouble. That means all of our groups stay adrift, by themselves, doing their own thing on their own time. We don't network, we don't share, we don't sit down with a cold one and talk shop, lest we fear becoming vicitim to politics, rivalries, or something worse.

It is difficult to ascertain and maturely discuss pitfalls and potential solutions at times because some see this as merely outright, baseless criticism. If the 2100 fails to bring success to the GPR, if passengers are alienated or otherwise unmotivated to ride, if marketing strategies fail, if the locomotive falls into disrepair, it is the responsibility of everyone to try and help--maybe not directly, but perhaps in their own arena, perhaps in their own similiar situations. We needn't talk about one group specifically, but about the problems we all face, as well as what has worked in the past, and what could work in the future, leaving politics, vendettas, and all of the other muck at the door.

What hurts one of us hurts all of us, but the opposite rings just as true. If one of our groups finds success, we can all learn from it--just as we can learn from their mistakes.

The need for networking and dialogue between groups and group members has already begun to pass us by--with our numbers shrinking and overhead skyrocketing, we are our own best solution to keeping the future looking bright, but we're also our own worst enemy.

We need to realize we're not simply providing a service to ourselves where we can operate old trolleys, blow whistles, shovel coal, and otherwise experience the past as we've dreamt it--we are providing a complete experience for the rest of the world. If they don't care, if they witness an organization falling in on itself, neglecting equipment or public relations efforts, or are otherwise unmotivated, we may as well pack up shop, for we really are just a bunch of fanatics with no capability for selflessness.

This requires us to go the extra mile, but hell--we already rebuild steam engines, rolling stock, run trains, don gloves and caps and overalls, and inhale dirt and expend an enormous amount of film and personal time over this task of preservation--what's wrong with going a little farther?

Kelly Lynch

Kelly, good discussion and several good points.

One of the problems may be a PERCEIVED competition among preservation groups. That may take the form of competing for limited grant money and other forms of public support; of competing for equipment acquisitions; and in some areas for recruiting volunteer labor and workers. Whether actual competition or not, that places a taboo on a lot of discussion and limits free exchange of ideas and discussion of problems and solutions.

Any open discussion of even a perceived threat to the future of a preservation operation, highlights that as a news item; and can bring other players into the mix, in a possibly detrimental fashion.

I do not have an answer or any possible solution, but do agree that there is a lot of learning to be shared as we move inexorably into the future with its unknowns and surprises.

Bob Kutella

There is a group in Ohio, It is the Ohio Rail Tourism Association. It is part of the Ohio Rail Development Commision. The web site is ohiorailtourism.org
This group has proven to be helpful in bring togther groups in Ohio and working with the state.
I do not ever recall hearing this group metioned here. The group really has the potential to do alot of good. It brings all of us togther and HOPEFULLY work togther. There is something under way that may well damage that.
Kelly you are correct in what you say and I agree whole heartedly, I'm just tring to find a way to make a small model of it work out.
Northern Ohio is the "poster child" for the bad points you are talking about, changes are under way at different groups and the chance to work as a team may well be there someday, but it still looks like "my" idea/plan is the "best" and everyone else is the enemy after "my" money.
Today I'm going to try and make a small inroad at mending fences and working toghter let's see how it goes. Hopefully others in our group and other groups will begin to see the 'Light" of united we stand divided we FAIL.

Kelly, I'm not quite sure I understand your point (or points). There seem to be more than one - that some people post their opinions without much grounding, that some of them are negative, that those opinions bug some people who are involved, and that that animosity could hurt "rail preservation."

Maybe, but I doubt it. Because not every recreational railroading venture is "preservation." Using old equipment doesn't make you a "preservation group" or a "museum." For-profit, private groups and not-for-profit or public outfits usually have different goals, different plans, etc. - I wouldn't lump them all together.

Using your example, I wouldn't consider Golden Pacific "rail preservation," and I doubt the operators would claim that as their goal. Others may disagree, and I may be wrong, but Golden Pacific appears to be a for-profit entertainment product. It doesn't look anything like, e.g., the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.

If I'm right, then if Golden Pacific fails, it won't be because someone posted an opinion here. It will be because it failed to make money, i.e. it was a bad business plan, or poor execution of a good one. And I can't see why there would be a negative impact on FWRHS, or the Strasburg Rail Road because Tacoma-area people didn't choose to purchase Golden Pacific's product.

And it isn't my "responsibility" to "support" an operation just because it's there. If I were to say, "I've decided to open a buggy whip factory - now, everyone come and buy a buggy whip to support me!" - what is the appropriate response? It is, in fact, a pretty stupid idea, is it wrong for someone to say, "boy, that's kind of a dumb move, John - what were you thinking?"

Sometimes, we all need to hear some hard truths.

Good ideas, executed well, will usually succeed. Poor ideas, executed well or not, will eventually fail. Sharing our successes is important, as you say - but dissecting our failures usually provides important knowledge, too.

JAC

I guess I lumped too many irons in the fire there. I was using the GPR as an example of any organization touching on any aspect of railroading--granted, you can't lump everything under the umbrella of preservation. Of course, that becomes a deeper question (what is preservation? sights, sounds, smells, authentic carpentry, clothing?)

The Grand Canyon has proudly stated they are creating their own history and their own look with their own locomotives, which I'd say entitles the GC to a realm of preservation. Even if what groups do is "non-historical," in a way, it creates a new history.

Regardless of the authenticity or historic merit or entertainment value, I would suspect that when the public hears "trains" they are only getting a quarter of the picture. An operation in the Black Hills that has train rides with steam locomotives won't look too different than the one at Cedar Point to someone just looking for amusement. If an organization involved in trains in Chicago falls on its face, it does us well (as you and I have said) to learn from their mistakes, even if they had a different overall mission (entertainment versus historical re-creation).

I'm sure some others may disagree, but its important to evalute the pitfalls and perils and the successes of other groups involved in some sort of railway operation. Sure, one may be an amusement park ride locomotive with garish colors and balloon stack, and another may be a meticulosly restored PA. I know on RyPN this borders on breaking guideline rules when it can be perceived as "attacking an organization."

Sure, we don't have to support every single group 'cause one may or may not have a steam locomotive (or a buggy whip, in John's case) but because its all relative to railroading and railroad preservation, its important to have each others back and be willing to examine those hard truths.

Like I've said, there's so much yet to be learned from our successes--and our oversights.

Having said that, I'll take two buggy whips, Mr. Craft. :)

Kelly Lynch

I strongly agree with Kellys main thrust that it behooves us all to work together as much as possible as any outfit that fails taints us all.
Sharing information and particularly what we have found that works and does not is the main reason we worked hard in the early 70's to give birth to TRAIN,Inc. so that it would act as a clearing house for the industry. I believe that despite its many imperfections on balance it has served that purpose reasonably well and can do better with active participation from more of the industry.
Specific to the GPRR case, I have shared with them from long before they began operating that based on my real life experience "selling steam" that the product they proposed had no chance of success in the marketplace. The fact that ridership to date has proven my point does NOT make me pleased but was inevitable. For all our sake I very much hope they'll take a deep breath,regroup and fashion a biz. plan that can work in the real world. We'll all be winners if they're a winner.
IMHO-Ross Rowland

There's an old saying that's applicable here:

"You can lead a horticul" -- umm, sorry, wrong saying.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

'Twas ever thus. The smart horses will drink, the stupid horses will die of thirst.

It is very, very hard to educate a horse that doesn't want to learn.

JAC

Hi all,
There is a lot of truth in this discussion.
Some things I have noticed is that only about 10% do the work in any group. Of that 10 % only a few are the movers and shakers. The ones who Push and Push and Push to get the job done. These people are the dedicated ones that even though busy will make the time to help no matter what. They will keep giving and giving of themselves till they are completely burnt out. It may take 20 years for it to happen but it will eventually and the reason it does is because everyone knows they will give until they cant anymore. A lot of time they dont even get a thank-you for what they have done.
I have found that a lot of groups have people in them that feel this way"If it isnt my Idea it isnt a good Idea" It doesn’t matter if it is the best Idea ever, some people will put it down just for that reason.
Right now I am working with a group that has just started up and it is a difficult process to say the least. We didn’t have the money to pay a lawyer or a CPA to put together our 501(c)(3) forms so we had to learn how to do it ourselves. This took over 2 years but we now have our Determination letter from the IRS and are a non profit.
We are now working on our first project. Hume Kadin graciously helped us put together a News Brief for RYPN to publish. I cant thank him enough for this and his efforts.
Would you believe we received only one response from that News Brief? Out of over 900 people who are members on RYPN we got a response from only one person besides Hume. There are many projects people talk about on RYPN that could use help from all of us.
Again we all are so busy that we cant find the time to help. We are coming to the close of this our first project and it will either succeed or fail but if it fails it wont be because we didn’t try.

And for a last thought, I keep getting the following statement. “I live so far away that I could not be much help any way but I do hope you will succeed” With the Internet today anyone any where can help in some way. Do you know Book Keeping Help someone set up a chart of accounts and go over it with them. That can be done online. Can you write? Submit articles to a group for their news letter. Do you know anything about business, find someone to help out. They will be ever grateful for it. Remember it isn’t all Manual Labor.

Thank you all for Listening
Andrew Martin
President