Many of you are familiar (I hope) with the PRR Test Plant that used to reside in Altoona. As part of that complex was a "treadmill", first put on display at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in 1904, on which the PRR could run and test locomotives at speeds approaching 100 mph without the loco ever leaving the building. We are currently undertaking discussions at the Railroaders Memorial Museum about the next phase of our roundhouse/yard project. I am going to throw what is still a VERY HYPOTHETICAL proposal out for public comment. Would there be any interest in having a facility to publicly display both steam and diesel power running in such an environment as the old PRR "treadmill"? Rebuilding such a piece of equipment is one of the options staff is currently putting under consideration. We would appreciate the industry's comments.

FYI: The only other steam locomotive dynamometer facility ever constucted in the US, at the University of Illinois in Urbana, IL, still exists - albiet without its testing equipment. The building, however, looks largely as it did when it opened in 1913.

Tom Cornillie

Scott,

This is an interesting concept. With Norfolk Southern's rebuild facility in Altoona could they utilize it for post-rebuild tests? I would guess they typically make road tests or put them on load banks if stationary.

As for steam restorations, it would be interesting to see if putting a fresh rebuild on a test plant for say.....pre-excursion inspections by a hosting railroad.......have any value? I am sure that the physical presence of an excursion train on a class I yields the most heartburn but maybe it would provide a higher confidence level in durability prior to the run?? I guess the challenge now is getting the locomotive to the test plant.

Incidentally, I have a book in my collection in which you may be interested. It is titled.......The Pennsylivania Railroad System at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition, Locomotive Tests and Exhibits, St. Louis Missouri, 1904. First Edition........ The condition of the book' s binding is really bad but it appears to have all pages in tact. It has 734 pages and an enormous number of fold-out drawing plates which describe the test plant in detail as well as (8) test locomotives reviewed as well as their test results. The plates are not detailed fabrication or machining drawings but they do give a detailed description of the test plant. Books like this are not published today.

If this is a book your group could use for reference, let me know. I may consider parting with it.

Thanks,

Randy Musselman

This is an extremely way cool idea which will draw the several technical geeks who truly appreciate this stuff to Altoona like a small cloud of flies - myself included.

Whether it will have the same impact on visitation from the General Public I wouldn't hazard a guess.

Feeling lucky, Scott?

dave

For cost considerations I would connsider such a treadmill as a display without all the instrumentation. Get a loco more or less permanently in place, wheels slowly revolving (using compressed air?) to closely show the general public the form and function. If designed carefully, the other whistles and bells could be added in the future if there ever developed a real need to test a rebuilt (or even a new design) loco.

But this way it would be a 'clean' exhibit without the need for coal (or oil), water (and treatment), smoke, ash pit, and no long fire up or starting time. And perhaps no FRA form 4 and boiler inspections, or at least a simplified one depending on how the air was introduced (and disguised) into the cylinders.

Bob Kutella

Are you suggesting something like an electrified set of drivers and rods, mounted on a permanent platform above the test-bed? It would be non-functional, but explain some of the testing process. For the expense, it seems like a slight return, other than to show locomotive motion in action. On the other hand, it would allow students and observers to stand in one spot and study - really study - the things that make a steam locomotive operate. The Chicago Museum of Science and Industry has a setup of valve gear and a driver, something like that. They also have a genuine PRR locomotive cab on the floor. Nobody knows the loco it came from , but somebody suggested it came from a G5s.

If you were to put a diesel on the treadmill, a simple MG set delivering say 75 volts would be adequate to turn the traction motors and wheels. For a steam loco mechanism I was thinking along the lines of adapting a fireless cooker setup to an otherwise complete looking loco, perhaps a candidate with a bad boiler. Then using an off stage air compressor and tank, pipe the air through simple valves or controls to the line downstream of the throttle valve.

It should produce a convincing cadence, perhaps even a chuff or two, and be able to be readily cycled through a demo without having to fire the locomotive - both costly and time consuming.

Bob Kutella

If one decides to pursue the fireless-loco running gear approach, let me remind you that there are not one, but TWO 1949 Porter 0-6-0F's that are "preserved" but theoretically "available" in central Pennsylvania. Both are ex-Penna. Power & Light power plant at Shamokin Dam, Pa. last operated in 1989; one is stashed in the back lot of the Blue Mountain & Reading's South Hamburg shops (it was supposedly acquired by the now-deceased BM&R steam mechanic, and I do not know its actual current ownership status); the other, last I saw, was at the end of track of the West Shore RR in Mifflinburg, Pa., owned by a group which supposedly has lost a couple members to deaths.

As to whether or not it's a sound approach, I don't know. Leaving aside the mechanics, costs, return on investment, etc. (unless somehow something joint comes up with NS for a jointly-used test bed), the fireless boiler (and that's what it is) might be able to be configured for recharging with compressed air from a small air compressor, letting it cycle between, say, hourly demonstrations. Check out your local/state boiler codes, storage tank regulations, etc. before going too far with this. But at least no one has to go get one of the Galt 0-8-0's and refurbish the running gear!

Would locomotives be open to the genreral public to be the engineer for a fee? Does that make it too much of an amusement ride?

Tom

What are the merits of a reconstructed locomotive test plant? I can think of several, but it may come down to issues of return on investment.
1. Almost anything artifact can be made into an engaging display if enough thought, effort, and money are put into its interpretation. That said, the test plant has some obvious hooks that could truly engage the public, especially if it can make a static display locomotive “come alive.” It would likely be much cheaper and far more reliable than running a locomotive under steam.
2. There are a fair number of preserved dynamometer cars, but the test plant would have a far greater public appeal. The test bed would certainly make a great center stage, but that may only be a portion of the building’s space. By all accounts, the museum has done a great job with gallery-type exhibits. Absent the test plant, does the museum desire more display space, can it afford to operate a larger footprint, and are there more cost effective ways of expanding?
3. By my count, there were only nine test plants built in the world (sorry Tom, but there also were test stands in Kaukauna, WS; West Lafayette, IN, and New York City). This, however, could be the only remaining facility of its type in the world that is open to the public (the Urbana facility is now a high-energy physics lab). With a workable plan for interpretation, I would think that you have a good story for fund raising.
4. The advantages for of a test bed for empirical study of locomotive efficiency were their total control of coal and water quality. They were also able to measure exhaust gases and particulate matter. Finally, they applied highly measurable resistance to study drawbar pull. These were cutting edge research topics in their era. While it might not compare to Menlo Park, it’s an interesting history. By describing the test inputs and outputs, you may also be able to market the attraction as a science museum. I can’t think of a better way to attract field trips that demonstrate chemistry, physics and even applied mathematics.

I think... if you re-build it, they will come.
From the standpoint of, "show me something I can't see anywhere else," it's a very exciting idea.

But how do you get them there to start with? FedEx? UPS Ground?

I suppose you could ship the loco via flatcar the way Reading 2100 was shipped to Tacoma, but I'm guessing most operations wouldn't like the costs involved for a round trip move in that fashion.

Still thinking out loud here.

First, we probably aren't interested in building this unless the locomotive is running "live" on the treadmill. We aren't particularly interested in something of this scale just to show operating running gear. I already have such an exhibit.

Second, the existence/nonexistence of a full rack of instrumentation and "test bed equipment" would not make or break the project.

Third, we realize that one of the biggest hurdles to others in the industry would be getting the subject locomotives here. However, most of you probably already realize that one of the biggest plusses for us is that we could showcase a fully operational K4s #1361 indoors, year-round, and do it much more often that seeing it out on the "open road". Yes we plan to use #1361 in revenue service but as has been discussed here many times, if you were going to INTELLIGENTLY start an excursion service, you wouldn't do it with a loco the size of a K4.

I thank everyone for the thoughts and ideas so far and look forward to continued conversation of this interesting possibility.

Logistics aside - If you guys had something like the K4 on the 'treadmill' I would certainly make a detour via Altoona on a trip to Sand Patch or the such. I think it would have allot of draw.

Are there any images on the net that you know of that those of us who never saw the treadmill could see?

Heck, you guys could do what Fort Wayne is doing with the 'hand on the throttle' program, and of course it's all stationary and you don't have to worry about someone running off the end of track. On the topic of Fort Wayne's new program, found this on Youtube.com - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76cqn7ac_XA - It's one thing to see an engine, it's another to get in there and run it yourself.

-Justin Franz

I'll scan a few images