Folks,

For some research into something that has naught to do with rail magazine writing (well, not yet, anyway):

Have any of you ever encountered an alcohol-based excursion event, other than the obvious Napa Valley Wine Train?

I'm looking for accounts in North America of railroad rides where passengers can not only imbibe, but are encouraged to--or the event is centered around such beverages. For example, suppose a dinner train operated to and from a brewpub. (That was the case with Mountain Town Station in Mt. Pleasant, Michigan and some of the Tuscola & Saginaw Bay trains.) What about a private charter by a brewery or distillery? The Verde Canyon RR has reportedly started an Oktoberfest celebration, with passengers having a mini-festival before boarding and more of the beers on board.

For those of you who operate the trains, have you had any restrictions (such as no alcohol anywhere on the premises)? Have you had any bad experiences with booze, or do you not allow it strictly to prevent such problems? Do you offer booze in First Class strictly to cut out the riff-raff? Are there logistical problems (such as licensing, or multiple jurisdictions) that prevent you from even considering the possibility?

I may remark in closing that British excursion lines have found a brisk business in everything from pubs in the terminal stations of the line (Severn Valley, for one) to "real ale" festivals and events catering to the plentiful beer snobs--er, geeks--er, craft ale enthusiasts. The Strathspey Railway had (still has?) a bar car with over sixty kinds of single malts from the nearby distilleries, with restoration sponsored in part by Glenfiddich. Perhaps a Kentucky Bourbon Train is in order--and not the ceramic Jim Beam train sets, please?

Since most tourist trains are promoted as "family fun" venues, serving or having a tie-in to alcoholic beverages is inappropriate.

However, that doesn't mean there can't be special events or runs, including charter runs, where alcoholic beverages are served. Such events would of necessity need to be promoted as restricted to age-appropriate patrons. -- Ray

RMNE/NAUG has operated "Vintage Express"tm service since Fall 1998. The first three years we operated in partnership with a winery located about a ten-minute bus ride from our East Litchfield station. Passengers had a wine tasting on-board enroute to E. Litchfield, then more tasting and food at the winery. One note: it used to be called the "Wine Train" until a letter arrived from Napa Valley's lawyers. Seems that "Wine Train" belongs to them. So, "Vintage Express" now belongs to us.

Since 2001, we have operated the "VE" trains as a round-trip from Thomaston, with wine tasting and food on-board. This usually runs in the fall. Adults only, runs in the evenings, and brings a premium fare-- thus, no kid problems.

We have one of our people licensed as a "Permittee" for a "Railroad Liquor" permit. We do have our quaint Yankee ways up here in the Nutmeg State. This permit is for on-train consumption only, and that is the only place imbibing is allowed.

We did once try a "Beer Tasting" train, and the experience was not repeated. Two very different crowds!!!!

The Nevada Northern runs Ales on Rails, Sunset at Steptoe (Wine Train) and Oktoberfest trains from May through September. There is beer available on all excursion trains. We need to have a city liquor license and a county one too.

Staff knows to cut off anyone if necessary. In four years they have had to do it about twice. Our trains take about two hours and the serving is usually complete in the first hour.

Staff also knows that if in doubt they are to call for help. If necessary they are to call 911 and the sheriff will meet the train. This has never happened.

So why does a museum offer so many alcohol themed trains? Because it sells, we have people drive hundreds of miles to participate. Also one of our hotels will provide pick up and delivery service.

In fact being the crew on these trains is just about the hardest of any of our trains. When the train pulls into the depot, the Conductor will open the door, announce East Ely, end of the line and drop to the ground and wait. It usually takes 20 to 30 minutes to unload 40 to 80 passengers.

Why? Because people are enjoying themselves so much they don’t want to leave. When was the last time you needed to use a crowbar to get your passengers off the train? Also we usually pick up 1 or 2 new members per trip.

And as an additional benefit. If there are empty seats these are comp’ed to staff and volunteers as a thank you for their hard work.

I’m tempted to mention the brothels and our previous Mayor’s idea but this is a family site.

I find this topic intresting.

I have long been opposed to touritst operations, that are supposedly centered around a "family atmosphere" selling booze on their regular trains.

It is one thing to offer bar service, as stated here, in frist class accomodations or dinner trains and other "themed" events that are for adults, but I have been taken back by one local operation who offers bar service on ALL their trains and HIGHLY promotes it!

I can understand their look....make money where it can be made...but at what cost?

On a 3 hour trip I recently took, I noticed far too many of the passengers were a lil looped by the time the trip was done and they were not only driving, but also had their kids with them.

Sure, it's not the railroads fault that the adults cannot take the responsibility for own actions, particularly around children. One could argue that it is no different than if they went to a resturaunt and had some drinks AFTER the train ride but why promote yourself as a "family venue" when you are clearly out to sell booze to the adults while they take their kiddies for a train ride? Halloween Trips: Treats for the kids in costume!!!.... while mom and dad get trashed in the bar car?

This is not only done on their longer trips but also their short "under an hour" trips.

Same operation hosts a dinner train and a wine n' cheese type train after their regular excursions.

When do you define and cross the line between making money and living up to your supposed reputation as a tourist railroad centered around the family....ie: taking the kids for a train ride?

Sorry, I drink too (German and Irish here)... but I have never and would never drink around small children and or teenagers. I cannot stand to see it. Yes, I know, that is my personal opinion. However, I really don't see where it's that much different than when everyone makes a rightful stink about a parent shooting up in front of their kids....either way, you are setting an extremely bad example.

Again, it is up to the 'adults' to make the decision to drink or not but why should the local tourist road feed the fire?

I rode the Bel-Del excursions out of Phillipsburg, NJ, Sunday, and there was a car reserved for a winery tour. Passengers rode one way by train and then were met by a bus which took them to the winery. It appeared to be a popular option.

http://www.warrencountywinetrain.com

Years ago I was involved with a dinner/party train operation in Maryland that included full bar service on board. Our lead partner simply went down to the state liquor control board and returned with a "Railroad Liquor License" (Amtrak and CSX had the only other two). I won't begin to go into all the adventures, both positive and negative, that came from this experience, or the endless internal debates we had over it. We did put our staff through a basic alcohol management training class, which is often required of many bar/restaurant employees. The availability of alcohol on the train opened a whole different market for us but presented many management challenges. We eventually sold the business to others and the operation closed a few years later.

Alan Maples

Spirit of Washington dinner train includes a winery tour and tasting. Ralph Justen ran pizza and beer trains in Wisconsin. The Tramcar Restaurant in Melbourne serves a 4 course dinner complete with bar service while carrying you around town on a converted luxury dinner trolley.

Assuming everybody's concept of "Family" activities is the same isn't particularly enlightening. Having both teetotalers and alcoholics in my family, as well as about anything in between, taught me from a young age the benefits of self disclipline and moderation in consumption. If I hadn't had the benefit of bad examples, I'd probably have made much worse choices in my teens. The ones I made were bad enough even with a good exposure.

There's something civilized about sharing a good beverage and a meal with people on a train that is not only nostalgic and romantic, but highly marketable to the middle and high end audience. It makes any trip a special occasion if it is done well.

dave

If I remember correctly, the New Hope & Ivyland operated (and may still) a train for beer aficianados, I believe in conjunction with the brewpub across from the New Hope station. It was similar to the wine-tasting trains described here.

For the average, late-morning-to-late-afternoon, one-hour-on-the-train tourist train schedule, offering Bud or Boone's Farm seems like a less-than-stellar business proposition for the incremental revenue earned. Offering alcohol brings with it certain structural costs (inventory controls, training, etc.) that make sense for high-volume sales (a ball park), but not onesie-twosie cups in the baggage car.

But a bespoke, high-dollar "event train" (dinner train, pub or wine tasting) is a different matter.

One idea to throw out along the line of the Naugy's wine train - have a conversation with your local beer and wine distributor about coming up with a successful event or series of events. They have access to significant promotional budgets to push specific products. (For example, our Civic Association gets paid thousands of $$$ in sponsorships by distributors during our annual arts festival, if they are allowed to provide and promote specific products.) They will also be able to provide servers already trained to State standards (and may pay them as well).

An all-Premium-Class train, coupled with the distributor's latest push, can make money for everyone, with only small increases in liability.

JAC

New Hope & Ivyland sells alcohol on their regular tourist trains. They have operated wine tasting trains featuring Bucks County vinyards. Not sure if this is still offered. Since their regular trip is only 45 minutes, I doubt people would go over the edge.

Finger Lakes Scenic has done some wine-tasting excursions out of Geneva. That's prime New York State winery area to begin with; it has a reputation of that before the train ever started. They have one winery within about 500' of the tracks, as well. So it's not much of a 'stretch' to work the railroad with the existing market.

I was on board one in April and it was relatively well done. They highlighted all the local products and sponsoring local wineries, and nobody seemed to get out of hand or cause a problem.

Normally I'm pretty skeptical about these and very concerned about the liability overhang; I'd say be careful, but it can be done. In the case of the Finger Lakes, it really fits with the mission and market of the railroad, as well as a significant market segment - maybe not quite as much of a fit as Napa Valley, but in the ballpark. It's not for everybody, and yes, in some cases I think you really stand to alienate more of your market than you stand to gain. If you have 'museum' in your name, that's another consideration on the image vs. the payoff.

I would also think you're running more of a risk of alienating the customer if it is 'not' a special run and catches them by surprise in a standard excursion. I have bad memories of one of my very first train rides as a child where it seems like everybody in the lounge was really, really intoxicated - not uncommon in the 60's and not something worth recreating for the sense of rail history!

I was very glad to see the comments on special training for the crews on handling customers, same responsibility as any restaurant.

The issues raised about customer intoxication are worthy of consideration. Having done much study of both European and American alcohol sociology, marketing, etc. (a shelf full of textbooks behind me and a secondary job title as a beer magazine columnist), I would say that there's a general consensus that the relatively Puritan values of American society, combined with the "forbidden fruit" aspect of barring alcohol until the age of 21, tend by and large to not only make any booze a "special occasion", but also encourage immoderation in drinking as a result (tailgating at sporting events, "keggers", etc.). People are seriously castigated for having even one beer or wine with lunch in America; I've seen steam excursion crews in Britain nip to the pub for a quick pint of mild during a lunch break or layover! But that's a greater societal issue we can only consider, not change.

Perhaps part of the answer is to deal only with higher-end craft beer and wine, probably tied in with a single microbrewery or winery, and work with said brewery/winery to develop the best strategy to reduce outright consumption (for example, tastes are $1 each, full glasses/bottles $4-5, and bottles to go sold only at the end of the run; or price of the ride includes a set number of bar chits, to be used for samples/full servings as the rider chooses). Whatever one does, do not offer "all you can drink" either on or off the train.

Thanks for the tips so far; keep them coming!

Santa Fe Southern Rwy., Santa Fe, NM:

High-Desert Highball Friday Nights
Complimentary bar snacks
Cash bar
(no layover in Lamy) MAY 5 - OCT.
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM SANTA FE COUNTY LOCALS ONLY DISCOUNT:$18 (All ages)
Silver $35 (All ages)
Dome$45 (All ages)

Durango & Silverton NG RR, Durango, CO:

December 31: Annual New Year's Eve Special Train
Enjoy a festive evening excursion onboard a turn-of-the-century train. Entertainment, hors d'oeuvres, and a cash bar.

www.durangotrain.com

www.santafesouthernrailway.com

The Sierra RR in California ran Wine & Cheese trains for several years in the 1970s before it came under museum control. Does anyone have any experiences on them to share? I rode a couple and they didn't appear to present any special problems regarding safety or other issues.

I do not agree that family friendly means no alcohol. Certainly baseball and football games are family venues with plenty of alcohol. We have lots of alcohol at our Thanksgiving dinner, Christmas, and Easter, and these are definitely family events with children. All the local country clubs have multiple bars, including beverage service at the 9th hole and at the pool, again plenty of kids. Our local horse track, Keeneland, is THE family destination spring and fall, and has plenty of alcohol. I see kids at Hooters sometimes, but I think that goes too far.

"Family friendly" is in the eye of the beholder, and may be more wishful thinking than reality.

p.s. look at the cruise industry. All of the major tourist steam boats have alcohol, such as the Segwun, Belle of Louisville, Natchez, etc., not to forget the diesel imposter "paddleboats" too. The Belle allows passengers to bring their own food and is definitely a budget family ride. Alcohol is a fixture at DisneyWorld, too.