I have just finished drooling over the photo spread in the new Railfan magazine about a special on the EBT that was operated 8 days after the Fall Spectacular. The 17 was "undecorated" (yellow, white and silver trim temporarily covered up) back to basic black as in regular service, pulling a train of hoppers.

The effect looks GREAT and produced some neat photos (and video ??)

BUT, one big question keeps coming to mind:

WHY wasn't this done FOR the spectacular ?

It's the one weekend out of the whole year when EBT fans from out of the area make that annual pilgrimage.

Was it a matter of the costs involved ? I would have been willing to put some bucks in the kitty, as I'm sure plenty of others would have been, to be able to witness this.

I guess it just comes down to human nature, and different people's ideas about SHARING.

Anybody out there, who was involved with this charter trip, willing to comment ?

> WHY wasn't this done FOR the spectacular ?

> Anybody out there, who was involved with
> this charter trip, willing to comment ?

I was "involved" only as a participant, but my comments:

The Spectacular is just that. Otherwise, wouldn't it be called the "EBT Fall Authentacular"? Its natural market is families living within a few hours' drive, and the average railfan wanting to see something special, not necessarily authentic.

Perhaps management has come to the conclusion that the costs associated with covering up the bright paint won't make the Spectacular more profitable - which is, after all, the goal. On the other hand, the goal of the small group of photographers (about 17 or so) was to get photos of as authentic a train as possible today. Jim Gunning wasn't trying to make a profit - Stan Hall is.

Having organized a few of these over the years, I would say management has it right. If EBT fans are coming every year already, playing with paint won't increase your paying patrons.

The "hardcore" market for highly authentic trains has never been big. Practically every one I've been involved with have been break-even, or shaky financially until the last few days before the trip. (There's one today on the Western Maryland Scenic that will probably be a money loser for the organizer.)

The price to attend Jim's trip was $250 per head for what turned out to be a half-day of photography, plus travel costs. (Most of the participants were at least a half-day's drive away - two from Atlanta, several from Florida, plus Maine, Michigan, Chicago, etc. - Steve Barry might have had the shortest drive.) Plus, Jim and his helpers did the "painting" themselves, and returned the loco to "as-was" at the end of the day (see RYPN's Mullah Erik on the case below).

This is at least the third private photo special in as many years, and I'm sure Stan would welcome another group throwing money at him to do something like this. Give him a call. If you believe there's a market for EBT fans to shoot an authentic train, organize it the day after the Spectacular (like one guy did in 2000).

Expect to pay about $4,000 to the railroad plus your own out-of-pocket costs for flyers, phone calls, materials, travel, etc. Plan to put in dozens of hours planning the schedule, cutting weeds, finding participants willing to pay, sweating the financial risk, hoping the National Weather Service cooperates, and worrying about liability in case one of your customers does something stupid, then sues you. (You might consider incorporating and purchasing liability insurance - that's another couple of thousand if you can find someone to underwrite it.) Be prepared to lose a few hundred or, a few thousand, dollars to get the photos or video you want. Or to get nothing if the weather is awful, or the loco fails. That's life on the authentic edge.

JAC



near McMullen's Summit MPEG 40 sec 3.7 mb

> BUT, one big question keeps coming to mind:
> WHY wasn't this done FOR the spectacular ?

...

> I guess it just comes down to human nature,
> and different people's ideas about SHARING.

OK, Mullah Erik will take a try at issuing a fatwah. As you can tell from John's pic, I was on the charter too (though peeling the tape off that one handrail was about all the work I did--this was Jim Gunning's show and to him goes the glory).

In addition to John's general remarks about the time, effort, agony, risk, and frustration which go into organizing charters, let me add a few specifics on this case--the EBT No. 17 "basic black" charter.

The first thing to understand is that the backdating of the engine (with Temera water soluble paint and black gaffer's tape) was done entirely by the charter organizer and his helpers--Stanley Hall and the EBT guys had nothing to do with it (not that they didn't enjoy it too, but it wasn't their job or their responsibility).

The entire process was very much in the nature of an experiment--trip organizer Jim put a lot of thought, effort, and testing into devising a reversable way to backdate the engine, and he sold EBT General Manager Stanley Hall on trying the experiment. Jim and I have collaborated on an article about his process for the Friends of the EBT Timber Transfer, and after it appears there I'll ask permission to republish it in RyPN so y'all can learn all about what Jim came up with.

Why not the Spectacular weekend? Because the Spectacular is the EBT owner's and staff's annual time to shine, and the whole point is to show off the railroad they maintain as a labor of love. In the excusion years, the EBT has evolved its own image, which now has 40 years of tradition behind it. The engines are painted the way they are becuase that's the EBT looks best in the eye of its owners and employees--the people who know and love it best. We may like the historical look more, but it's their railroad, that's the way they know and like it, and that's the image they will always choose to put forward in the Spectacular. Count on it.

In particular, I might add in this connection that owner Joe Kocalchick greatly honors the memory of his dad Nick--the man who saved the railroad. I suspect--I'm just guessing here, but I think it's a good guess--that if tasteful white and yellow trim and brass boiler bands were what Nick liked, then by gosh and by golley that's what Joe likes too, and that's the way things will stay!

All of that said, Stanley and the boys were intrigued by Jim's backdating idea. However, Stanley had a couple requirements. The backdating had to be 1. a carefully controlled experiment, and 2. totally reversable. There was no chance is heck that this experiment in changing the line's image nutured over the past 40 years would run during the Spectacular, so Jim chose a date a while later when he guessed the fall colors would be at their height. He got some friends together--people he knew he could count on to not bounce their checks--and off the trip went.

Is this selfish? I don't think so. To my mind, its more the American volunteer self-reliant spirit in action--Jim had something he wanted to see, he researched it, negotiated it, organized it, and pulled it off. To help him with both money and labor he invited some friends. Motiviation, initiative, and community self-organization around a goal: what could be less selfish, and more American?

Now that the precedent has been set, Stanley would probably be open to doing it again. Just remember, thought--he needs cash on the barrel, in advance, for the full cost of the trip, and he needs absolute trust in the organizer that his engine will not be irreversably mucked up in the process. Meet those conditions to Stanley's satisfaction, and you can create your own fanatasy day.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Let me state for the record that I've been on all ends of this kind of situation. I've been on expensive photo freights, I've tried to arrange one, and I've been the one cursing when someone sneaks one out without telling us.

The irritation that's out there is very understandable. After all, nobody likes a freeloader, and no one likes the "we-did-it-and-you-can't" air that floats off the pages of the Jan. 2002 R&R, warranted or not. Indeed, I'm sure that many readers smiled with impish delight that the carefully arranged charter had to be cut short.

Having experienced all kinds of protocol, I must agree that the technique that works best is the "benevolent dictatorship" of operators like Carl Franz. Go on one of his trips, and you'll see just WHY he calls all the shots and makes all the rules. Besides, it is his party, after all.

The problem is, how does one get the word out about such opportunities without aiding and abetting "freeloaders"? If anybody had been standing there at Orbisonia with a sandwich ad sign, saying "photo freight charter--ask here" and carefully weeded out the people who responded, with the date only being told when the check was handed over, with the option of automatic refund, "locals" like me could have cut the per-person fee in half.

Has anybody come up with a decent and fair plan to organize steam freight charters that doesn't reek of the exclusivity of a country club, other than Franz's fairly open and well-known set-up?

lner4472@bcpl.net

I have done a couple of charters and can tell you they never go as planned, or if they do its a real rarity.

There is generally a list of hard-core guys out there that support these things, if the trains are made to be authentic. If not they don't bother to spend their time or money. On the other hand there are some soft-core, that will except less than authentic for some charters especially if the price is more pedestrian.

The operators of some charters would rather not spend money to advertise, and pay more for the charter, to go with fewer people, which opens up more photo locations.

I remember doing a runby on the former L&N at Cowan tunnel with 4-6-2 152 where I almost got clipped by the engine, as we had 20 guys on each side of the track in the ditch. It was really too many. Try that with 50-100 people and you miss another cool shot, which defeats the purpose to some degree.

Some charters are designed for the masses to run as many runbys as possible, while others are more for lesser folks but selected special locations. Each has their own place. I may not always agree with some operators of these charters, but I usually RESPECT them all, since I know they are a ton of work, stressful, possible legal ramifications, and money losers. On one trip I incorporated(spent about $700) just to cover my rear. It seemed like a waste of money. On that trip I donated most of the profit to the Cumbres & Toltec, but the $700 went to a lawyer!

One way to solve this problem is for the railroads to try to upgrade their engines and rolling stock for a more authentic look, and let them operate the charters with help from a few outsiders perhaps. This way they have all the insurance, and they might make a few more bucks in the process. EBT would be a natural. They could have a weekend of freight charters, charge so much for a 2-day package, or single day passes.
Give them a good show, and folks will come back!
This same scenario could work for other operators also....Ohio Central...hint, hint!
Greg Scholl

PS sometimes you can't repeat trips, like our 152 trip in 1988. Several photographers have said to let them know if we do it again, but its impossible now that CSX has ownership, and 152 has moved to a new location. You can't go back!

Videos and such

sales@gregschollvideo.com

Sorry about the picture on the last one, it was there automatically from a previous post when I sent the last message.
Greg

PS Here is an image of 152 in our tape jacket. Photo was the outside Paris, KY, at the Stoner Creek trestle. John Craft and I spent about an hour walking across the bridge, and cutting down vegetation so we had a place to shoot from. 152 with classic 3 coach train, with no diesel, nor water car was the star attraction. This trip was a one-way from Paris-Maysville, and we did about 20 runbys at approx 12 different locations.

Videos and such

sales@gregschollvideo.com

> The irritation that's out there is very
> understandable. After all, nobody likes a
> freeloader, and no one likes the
> "we-did-it-and-you-can't" air that
> floats off the pages of the Jan. 2002
> R&R, warranted or not. Indeed, I'm sure
> that many readers smiled with impish delight
> that the carefully arranged charter had to
> be cut short.

> Has anybody come up with a decent and fair
> plan to organize steam freight charters that
> doesn't reek of the exclusivity of a country
> club, other than Franz's fairly open and
> well-known set-up?

Sandy, you're reading WAY too much into this one. And no offense, but you're out of line.

This trip was a last-minute pick-up game prompted in part by the uncertainties of the future of the EBT. Jim first announced his trip via email on 23 September, only 3 weeks in advance, as a trial balloon. I take the liberty of quoting from that email:

"Possible EBT Freight Charter"

"The planned price is $250-$300. We need 18 people to run the trip at $250. If we fall short, I will up the price to a maximum of $300 to enable the trip to run. If we get more than 18 people, I will lower the price to all, depending on how many attend. The maximum we can accommodate is 25 people. The deadline for a go no-go decision is the 5th of October. If we don't have enough commitments, with payment, by that date, the trip will not run. I APOLOGIZE FOR THE LATE NOTICE, BUT IT WAS UNAVOIDABLE. I REALIZE THIS GIVES YOU LESS THAN TWO WEEKS TO DECIDE AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS . . .

"This trip is for serious photographers only. Because of space limitations we cannot accommodate companions unless they are paid members of the trip. YOU MAY SEND THIS INFORMATION TO OTHERS YOU KNOW MAY BE INTERESTED IN ATTENDING, BUT PLEASE, DO NOT POST IT IN ANY PUBLIC FORUM OR INFORMATION BOARD. WE DO NOT NEED A NUMBER OF NON-PARTICIPANTS ATTENDING."

The trip was confirmed on October 4th, without enough people to make it break-even, but close.

The mailing list Jim used was far from "country club exclusive" - it was probably every railfan he had an email address for.

I found out because I've known Jim for over 15 years, and we've traveled together many times. Erik found out because I forwarded the message to him. There were others on the trip who weren't on Jim's original list, as well. (Jim is one of the last people who could be accused of being an elitist. Ditto Steve Barry.)

In the past when I've organized photo trains, I've tended to put together flyers with photos, and place ads. That works fine when you have a long lead time. Even then I got complaints that I was being elitist because the trips cost too much (a lot of people who turned their noses up at a $139 trip with A&WP 290 would probably have jumped at the chance with the benefit of hindsight.)

Most other guys doing this today either don't want to go to that amount of trouble, don't have to (my last charter was 1992, before the World Wide Web and ubiquitous email). Were I doing trips these days, I'd certainly market them differently.

Some guys simply want to put something together for a group of friends. (They're trying to have fun, too.) That's their right, and it doesn't make them "country club" elitists. If they have to open it up to the general public, they probably won't do it.

Carl hasn't always made his trips "open" - before he started getting covered in R&R, they tended to be hard to find out about as well, because he had a regular clientele. Even today, when Carl can fill his trips easily, he doesn't cast as wide a net. And he works primarily by phone, not by ads or flyers, too - he admonishes his clients not to post trip details on the Internet either. (If Carl is worried about chasers on the WMS, imagine how he would feel about the EBT - and rightly so.)

The "decent and fair plan" you seek exists - anyone can take the initiative to put together a trip and attract riders the way he chooses. That's the tradeoff for assuming the risks and workload.

JAC

> Sandy, you're reading WAY too much into this
> one. And no offense, but you're out of line.

> This trip was a last-minute pick-up game
> prompted in part by the uncertainties of the
> future of the EBT. Jim first announced his
> trip via email on 23 September, only 3 weeks
> in advance, as a trial balloon. I take the
> liberty of quoting from that email:

> "Possible EBT Freight Charter"

> "The planned price is $250-$300. We
> need 18 people to run the trip at $250. If
> we fall short, I will up the price to a
> maximum of $300 to enable the trip to run.
> If we get more than 18 people, I will lower
> the price to all, depending on how many
> attend. The maximum we can accommodate is 25
> people. The deadline for a go no-go decision
> is the 5th of October. If we don't have
> enough commitments, with payment, by that
> date, the trip will not run. I APOLOGIZE FOR
> THE LATE NOTICE, BUT IT WAS UNAVOIDABLE. I
> REALIZE THIS GIVES YOU LESS THAN TWO WEEKS
> TO DECIDE AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS . . .

> "This trip is for serious photographers
> only. Because of space limitations we cannot
> accommodate companions unless they are paid
> members of the trip. YOU MAY SEND THIS
> INFORMATION TO OTHERS YOU KNOW MAY BE
> INTERESTED IN ATTENDING, BUT PLEASE, DO NOT
> POST IT IN ANY PUBLIC FORUM OR INFORMATION
> BOARD. WE DO NOT NEED A NUMBER OF
> NON-PARTICIPANTS ATTENDING."

> The trip was confirmed on October 4th,
> without enough people to make it break-even,
> but close.

> The mailing list Jim used was far from
> "country club exclusive" - it was
> probably every railfan he had an email
> address for.

Perhaps a few comments from the "organizer", jgunning*cfl.rr.com, of the EBT trip would be appropriate. All that John, Greg and Erik kave said in responses to the posts is true, and I appreciate their insights.

The facts are: a personal scheduling problem caused what was pretty much a spur of the moment idea to be way short of enough organization and advertising time.

John is correct when he says I sent the ad for the EBT trip out to every railfan e-mail address I had. If I had yours, you would have received the ad like everyone else did. There was no exclusion at all. To the contrary, I told everyone to contact those railfans they knew to see if there were others interested, that I couldn't reach. I simply had no other viable way to advertise in the time available. The people that responded to the ad were the ones on the trip. As it was, we didn't fill up. We also didn't break even and were out of pocket for a small portion of it.

The trip was restricted to 25 people. The only reason for this was to assure a quality experience for the photographers attending. It had nothing to do with "exclusion" for any other reason.

I have been coming to the EBT since 1964 and I know it well. More than 25 people would have caused difficulty in the photo lines with the room available to stand. If I pay what is a high price for an organized charter I expect to get the best experience possible. That includes photos and sound as well as camaraderie among those present. An overly large group defeats all those purposes.

I did not post any messages on public forums. The main reason for this was to aviod non-participants attending. It is not that I have some moral problem with a freeloader. The problem is they can and do interfere with the running of the trip. I have been on several charters where the show had to be stopped in order to move someone out of a photo spot. This wasn't because we didn't want him to have a free photo, it was because we didn't want him in ours! In several cases they were even very belligerent about it! With the proximity of the EBT to public land, this could have been a significant problem, and one I didn't want to have.

Steve Barry printed the photos to share with the entire railfan community and to promote the EBT. It is no secret that the EBT is at an uncertain point regarding its future. All of us that love the EBT feel that by spotlighting it, perhaps increased interest in the EBT will help to insure its future.

I too have seen spectacular photos of a charter photo trip after the fact and wished I was there. Truth is, we can't attend them all. I get to those I can and admire the photos of the ones I miss.

Jim Gunning