> I like that....... can I use it? I hope they
> are not that serious about

> Oh, puh-leeeeze.......... That steam
> locomotive is a serious candidate for
> "most over-preserved class of
> locomotive in Britain". Besides, my
> recollection was that the particular
> locomotive sectioned was among the worst of
> the dozen or more pulled out of the Barry
> scrapyard--that on top of several preserved
> before the Barry miracle.

> Put it another way--if someone offered to do
> such a brilliant sectioning job on a real
> steam locomotive, and make room for its
> display at the Museum of Science &
> Industry, or the new science museum in
> Richmond, or the Smithsonian, or
> Steamtown....... and the loco offered was
> the Lynchburg rustbucket C&O 2-8-4 (of
> which many others of C&O and NKP
> survive)..... would you protest?

I stil would not inflict sectioning on ANY steam locomotive, no matter how many are left. My opinion.


kevingillespie@usa.net

> I stil would not inflict sectioning on ANY
> steam locomotive, no matter how many are
> left. My opinion.

Seconded!

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

IMO, I would love to see a sectioned full sized locomotive. There are many of the Baldwin "catalog" logging 2-8-2s around, and one of these is big enough to impress the public, but small enough to fit into a nice indoor display.

Where's the plasma cutter!

> Seconded!

And thirded.

I have seen both examples and found that in neither case was I more enlightened than I would have been just by viewing drawings and disassembled whole components. Perhaps damaged components such as condemned boilers could be sectioned after new boilers have replaced them, or the broken cylinder saddle from Austin after the new one is installed.

I have some very misty and vague memories of the Duquesne Slag whole and operating so perhaps I am somewhat emotionally reacting here.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Next time anyone has any "regrets" about chopping and channeling the Spang, Chalfont 0-6-0 at Steamtown, just take a real close look at the crown (and other) stays, and remember that the last gang of steam "jocks" that had it were planning on running it without too much work.....

The contractor (JDC) who did the job for Steamtown has called it a "mercy killing". And, yes, it is absolutely the best way to see and understand what's inside a chooch.

hpincus@mindspring.com

Not to get off the subject of this thread, but I feel the following item deserves praise--Steamtown's ex-Spang, Chalfant & Co. sectionalized 0-6-0 is one of the best learning tools to come along in a railway museum in many years. J.David did a simply superb job in preparing this engine for exhibition, and who else could muster enough of a sense of humor to "sectionaize" even the engineer's lunch box in the cab?!! Ethically, the choice of this locomotive was a good move--they chose to use a stock Baldwin 0-6-0, for which numerous duplicates exist. So they were not cutting into a "one of a kind." It is a good example of the kind of learning tool that the public finds compelling and most importantly, one which enables them to make connections with our mysterious technology. I think more North American railway museums need a sectionalized steam locomotive for exhibition purposes. I'm still trying to convince my institution that we need one.

K.R. Bell
RR Museum of PA

> Next time anyone has any "regrets"
> about chopping and channeling the Spang,
> Chalfont 0-6-0 at Steamtown, just take a
> real close look at the crown (and other)
> stays, and remember that the last gang of
> steam "jocks" that had it were
> planning on running it without too much
> work.....

> The contractor (JDC) who did the job for
> Steamtown has called it a "mercy
> killing". And, yes, it is absolutely
> the best way to see and understand what's
> inside a chooch.

Hats off to Rob Davis. He understands perfectly what I have been saying all along--that original fabric matters and needs to be preserved, not consumed. Museum visitors will be indebted to our efforts to save what remains from the past for future generations to enjoy and to learn from. We owe it to them.

K.R. Bell

> Greg,

> You are missing the point a bit.

> And I have to tease you a little... since
> you remind us with every post that you run a
> video business which relies on current steam
> ops, you fall in the category of those who
> need to have these artifacts running.

> The idea of original is guff to a railfan,
> but not to a preservationist. And yes, parts
> were exchanged all through service of
> locomotives. Tenders, boilers some times,
> down to minor parts.

> But when these engines left service, the
> parts on them (most of the time) were the
> parts they ran with. It would be nice to
> keep some that way. Especially those which
> were overhauled late in their service days.

> That's the point.

> Run some, leave the really historic ones
> alone.

> I fear, Greg, you are in the camp that Kurt
> Bell was discussing. Railfans are not always
> good custodians of artifacts.

> And that raises a question/ If these are
> toys, then is any rail museum legit? If we
> can play, rebuild, modify and consume our
> artifact, do they really have any value?

> Rob Davis

Somewhat amused to see your posting a few lines above about the urgent need to refrain from consuming historic fabric followed by this one. How is it possible to section an artifact comprosed of historic fabric without consuming it in the process?

Perhaps you have some specific set of guidelines about how one determines what historic fabric is appropriate for consmption - if it weighs the same as a duck maybe?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Somewhat amused to see your posting a few
> lines above about the urgent need to refrain
> from consuming historic fabric followed by
> this one. How is it possible to section an
> artifact comprosed of historic fabric
> without consuming it in the process?

> Perhaps you have some specific set of
> guidelines about how one determines what
> historic fabric is appropriate for
> consmption - if it weighs the same as a duck
> maybe?

> Dave

God bless you, Dave! Now the question may be can a swallow carry coconuts?

It may be that the "violence wrought on an artifact" (cutting anything in sections is violent, just ask William Wallace) is OK if it is a novel enough idea to warrent mention in the brochure, or some academic journal touting what a wonderful job the curator and his staff is doing to "increase awareness." If the artifact is consumed thru use, and that use some how brings pleasure as well as education, then the academic types will deem it anathama.


lorija799@aol.com

I'm still trying to
> convince my institution that we need one.

Just please get one from China for this purpose!

like a vintage 1989........no historic fabric there!


btrue@vt.edu

> Hats off to Rob Davis. He understands
> perfectly what I have been saying all
> along--that original fabric matters and
> needs to be preserved, not consumed. Museum
> visitors will be indebted to our efforts to
> save what remains from the past for future
> generations to enjoy and to learn from. We
> owe it to them.

> K.R. Bell

I rode many a mile behing 2124; on more than one occasion she got up to 75 mph between Woodbourne and Neshaminy Falls (timed by catenary poles with mile post information).

The engine as she stands was built at Reading Shops in 1947, and when removed from service in 1961 was still maintained there by the people who built her. She may have been assigned elsewhere for monthly boiler washes etc. but the main shop was always Reading. The inside of that engine is original steam-era. If she were repaired and returned to service, that information on steam-era practices would be lost.

As an aside, a T-1 has an over 96-foot wheelbase; Steamtown has a 90-foot turntable.

The Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> I have seen both examples and found that in
> neither case was I more enlightened than I
> would have been just by viewing drawings and
> disassembled whole components.

*But YOU, dear sir, UNDERSTAND how steam locomotives work. You're a distinct minority. There was recently a press report (in a newspaper, verified by Trains Magazine) on one of the big mainline steamers (4449? 261?) where the reporter, in the process of describing the locomotive,explained how the locomotive made steam--by burning coal and then dumping water on the hot coals!!!!!!!!! This is the kind of idiocy--excuse me, lack of knowledge--that museums have to cater to on a daily basis.

Perhaps
> damaged components such as condemned boilers
> could be sectioned after new boilers have
> replaced them, or the broken cylinder saddle
> from Austin after the new one is installed.

*And just how many condemned locomotive boilers do you see lying around anywhere? I know one or two in the UK, but........

Basically, let me reiterate that no one ever proposes sectioning an SP Daylight, PRR K4, B&M Pacific, or the John Bull. The candidates for this process MUST, by definition, be a horrendously redundant example of a common loco--something like the NKP/C&O Berkshires, the SP 0-6-0s, or some of the Santa Fe steamers scxattered willy-nilly. If/when it happens to diesels (and they have doors that open), you do it to a GP9 or Alco S2, not a Baldwin Centipede!



lner4472@bcpl.net

> Perhaps you have some specific set of
> guidelines about how one determines what
> historic fabric is appropriate for
> consmption
> Dave

Ah, the light begins to penetrate the concrete. Perhaps you will even think about what the call for a national database of preserved railway objects is for. (?) Please, please read the other 7/8 of my post of 7 Decemer.

johncb@u.washington.edu

If/when it happens to diesels
> (and they have doors that open), you do it
> to a GP9 or Alco S2, not a Baldwin
> Centipede!

There's a Baldwin Centipede still around?! ;-)

T.J.


Port Huron Museum
peremarquette@hotmail.com

> Not to get off the subject of this thread,
> but I feel the following item deserves
> praise--Steamtown's ex-Spang, Chalfant &
> Co. sectionalized 0-6-0 is one of the best
> learning tools to come along in a railway
> museum in many years. J.David did a simply
> superb job in preparing this engine for
> exhibition, and who else could muster enough
> of a sense of humor to
> "sectionaize" even the engineer's
> lunch box in the cab?!! Ethically, the
> choice of this locomotive was a good
> move--they chose to use a stock Baldwin
> 0-6-0, for which numerous duplicates exist.
> So they were not cutting into a "one of
> a kind." It is a good example of the
> kind of learning tool that the public finds
> compelling and most importantly, one which
> enables them to make connections with our
> mysterious technology. I think more North
> American railway museums need a
> sectionalized steam locomotive for
> exhibition purposes. I'm still trying to
> convince my institution that we need one.

> K.R. Bell
> RR Museum of PA

Kurt,

Griner will be over in the A.M. to start on 7002.