I was watching the Pearl Harbor special on NBC and I was wondering what were the most common type of main engines on those WW2 battle ships, turbine or piston engines?

Alan

adofmsu@aol.com

> I was watching the Pearl Harbor special on
> NBC and I was wondering what were the most
> common type of main engines on those WW2
> battle ships, turbine or piston engines?

> Alan

Probably triple expansion reciprocating steam engines. If you saw Titanic the movie, then you saw an engine from a WWII Liberty ship. These engines had four cylinders.

Some had turbines, and of course many had diesel power too.


rickrailrd@aol.com

Actually, there was a mixture of both. Most of the newer warships around the time of WWII were turbine driven. The triple expansion type that was seen in liberty ships were very slow, and could not operate at the speeds necessary for battleships. Of the battleships in service during the war, I think the older New York Class, and the Wyoming had triple expansion engines. The New Mexico class was unique in the aspect that it had a steam-electric propulsion system, similar to modern icebreakers. The North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa class all had turbines. Most newer cruisers and aircraft carriers were also equipped similarly. By WWII the turbine was a somewhat of an old concept in naval science, as being first successfully demonstrated at the Spithead Review of 1897 (I think the date is correct). During WWI the fast British battleships and Battlecruisers were turbine equipped. Sorry, not taking any classes that would require me having my Jane's books in the dorm room. IF I am wrong, please correct me.

wilkidm@wku.edu

Some ships such as LST's (Landing Ship Tanks) used diesel engines which were bought surplus after WW II by more than a few railroads. Santa Fe, for example, used recycled LST diesel engines for re-powering some of its doodlebugs.
LST 325 was recently relocated to Mobile Bay, Alabama. It might be interesting to see what power plant is in it. It was a WW II veteran re-acquired from the Greek Navy as a memorial.
I wonder if any submarine Fairbanks Morse OP diesel engines made it into railroad re-use?

> I was watching the Pearl Harbor special on
> NBC and I was wondering what were the most
> common type of main engines on those WW2
> battle ships, turbine or piston engines?

> Alan

The battleship at that time with triple expansion recips was the Texas. This was a New York class dreadnaught and not a true battleship. The New York was to have recips but the navy held the builder to Navy type turbines. This is why two in the same class had different types of engines. Liberty ships are not navy ships although they did play an improtant role in the war. The Texas is preserved near Houston and there are at least two Liberty ships preserved in running condition.

Robert@trainorders.com

While I am a curator of a Merchant Marine focus museum, not a Navy historian, the comments in this thread are correct. All the battleships after the Texas and New York and similar large ships got high speed steam turbins.
Our neighbor here in SF, the Liberty Ship Jeremiah O'Brian has a triple expansion steam engine because it was easy to build and easy for in-experienced engineers to operate. Most Liberty's were expected to survive only one cargo voyage across the North Atlantic. JOB is still steaming today! The other Liberty is the John W. Brown in Baltimore, MD They are the largest operational museum ships in the world. They are well worth a visit if you are in either city.

ted_miles@NPS.gov

Ted,
The New York class ships were dreadnaughts. and not battleships. The reason that the Texas ended up with recips is: The naval architects wanted their own design turbines in the New York class ships. The builder didn't want the naval turbines as they thought the design was poor. The navy then had the Texas engined with the 2 big recips telling the builder that all their ships would be the same unless they did what they (navy) wanted. The New York was then built with the Naval design turbines. So the Texas was the last Navy ship built with the recips. The Texas is listed by the ASME as an engineering landmark because of the two big triple expansion recipricating engines.

Robert@trainorders.com

The New York (BB-34) and Texas (BB-35) were the two ships of the New York class. These ships were laid down in 1911 and commissioned in 1914.

All the next class was the Nevada (BB-36) and Oklahoma (BB-37); laid down 1912 and commissioned 1916. These came with geared turbines plus cruising turbines (2 shafts). The Nevada during a rebuild in 1927-29 got geared turbines from the stricken North Dakota (BB-29).

The Pennsylvania (BB-38) and the Arizona (BB-39); laid down 1913 and 1914 and both commissioned 1916, had geared turbines plus cruising turbines (4 shafts), and were the first with four triple-gun turrets.

The New Mexico (BB-40), Mississippi (BB-41) and Idaho (BB-42) came with turbine-electric drive for 4 shafts. All three were laid down in 1915 and then commissioned Dec 1917 through March 1919. Despite advantages of the drive during a major reconstruction 1931-33 they were refitted with geared turbines of nearly double horsepower (27,500 SHP to 40,000 SHP).

The Tennessee (BB-43) [laid down 1917, commissioned 1920] and California (BB-44) [laid down 1916, commissioned 1921] also came with four turbine-electric driven shafts.

The final battleships built before the Washington treaty were:
.....Colorado (BB-45) laid down 1919, commissioned 1923
.....Maryland (BB-46) laid down 1917, commissioned 1921
.....Washington (BB-47) laid down 1919 **CANCELED 1922**
.....West Virginia (BB-48) laid down 1920, commissioned 1923
These also came with four turbine-electric driven shafts.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

My father, who served in the Pacific during WWII as a machinistÂ’s mate, has a roster published by the Navy at the time. Going from memory, since that book is 2000 miles away right now, I am quite sure it stated that the Oklahoma, alone among the BBÂ’s at Pearl Harbor had reciprocating steam engines, installed as a last gasp comparison against the turbines in the Nevada.

Other than the oldest battleships, the Navy didn’t have any combatants with reciprocating engines in WWII. However, there were a number of auxiliaries powered by “up-and-down” engines. Though he was never aboard one he has reminisced about other engineers complaining bitterly about all of the work required to keep an “up-and-downer” running, compared to a turbine.

Many of the smaller ships had diesel engines. He was on a destroyer escort powered by four 16-cylinder EMD engines. He said that they would overhaul one cylinder at each port of call, and thus work their way through all of the engines in turn. Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston engines were also popular in WWII Navy ships and subs.

The most far-fetched ships in the WWII Navy were two aircraft carriers. What made them special was that they were powered by side paddle wheels, and burned coal! They were converted from Great Lakes excursion boats at the start of the war, and used for pilot training at Great Lakes training base. They had no hanger decks at all, and were strictly used for landing and takeoff training of planes that were based ashore. Imagine the looks on the faces of new fire room personnel when they were handed a coal scoop at the start of their first watch in an otherwise oil-burning Navy! P. S. This is no BS! I wouldnÂ’t have believed it myself if I hadnÂ’t seen the photos.

If you ever get a chance to ride one of the liberty ships, do so at once. That engine has to be seen in person to be believed!

> My father, who served in the Pacific during
> WWII as a machinistÂ’s mate, has a roster
> published by the Navy at the time. Going
> from memory, since that book is 2000 miles
> away right now, I am quite sure it stated
> that the Oklahoma, alone among the BBÂ’s at
> Pearl Harbor had reciprocating steam
> engines, installed as a last gasp comparison
> against the turbines in the Nevada.
> Other than the oldest battleships, the Navy
> didnÂ’t have any combatants with
> reciprocating engines in WWII. However,
> there were a number of auxiliaries powered
> by “up-and-down” engines. Though he was
> never aboard one he has reminisced about
> other engineers complaining bitterly about
> all of the work required to keep an
> “up-and-downer” running, compared to a
> turbine.

> Many of the smaller ships had diesel
> engines. He was on a destroyer escort
> powered by four 16-cylinder EMD engines. He
> said that they would overhaul one cylinder
> at each port of call, and thus work their
> way through all of the engines in turn.
> Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston engines were
> also popular in WWII Navy ships and subs.

> The most far-fetched ships in the WWII Navy
> were two aircraft carriers. What made them
> special was that they were powered by side
> paddle wheels, and burned coal! They were
> converted from Great Lakes excursion boats
> at the start of the war, and used for pilot
> training at Great Lakes training base. They
> had no hanger decks at all, and were
> strictly used for landing and takeoff
> training of planes that were based ashore.
> Imagine the looks on the faces of new fire
> room personnel when they were handed a coal
> scoop at the start of their first watch in
> an otherwise oil-burning Navy! P. S. This is
> no BS! I wouldnÂ’t have believed it myself if
> I hadnÂ’t seen the photos.

> If you ever get a chance to ride one of the
> liberty ships, do so at once. That engine
> has to be seen in person to be believed!


Mention of those lake steamers converted to flat tops really brought back memories.
The ICRR General Offices were in the iith St. Station in Chicago. The Locomotive and Car Depts. shared a drafting room on the 11th floor. From
this room we had a grandstand view of the Carried
Pilot training.
Those converted lake steamers were so small in comparisom to a regular carried that if a pilot
could successfully take off and land on one of those he should be able to land on anything.We
saw several planes go into the water. But from what we could see they had a real good rescue set up and while they may have lost a few pilots I
believe the majority of them were rescued.
The planes they picked up didn't look to be in too bad shape either. Of course we were probally
a couple of miles away from the activity.
Jim



rrfanjim@mvn.net

Speaking of Great Lakes vessels, the U.S. Maritime Commission had sixteen Great Lakes ore carriers built in 1943 to handle the extra tonnage of iron ore needed for the war effort - sort of a Great Lakes version of the Liberty Ship concept. Ten of them, class L6-S-B1, had 2500-horsepower triple expansion engines similar to the Liberty Ship engines. The other six, class L6-S-A1 had four-cylinder double-compound engines with Lentz-Poppet valve gear.

A few of the Maritime Commission lakers survive today, though the ones that remain in service have all been dieselized. The last surviving L6-S-A1 class boat was running with her original Lentz engine as recently as 1999 before being dieselized. Sadly her engine was scrapped in the conversion. There are three dieselized L6-S-B1 boats in service, and two more survive in static roles with their original triple-expansion engines still in place.


rjenkins@railfan.net

> The New York (BB-34) and Texas (BB-35) were
> the two ships of the New York class. These
> ships were laid down in 1911 and
> commissioned in 1914.

> All the next class was the Nevada (BB-36)
> and Oklahoma (BB-37); laid down 1912 and
> commissioned 1916. These came with geared
> turbines plus cruising turbines (2 shafts).
> The Nevada during a rebuild in 1927-29 got
> geared turbines from the stricken North
> Dakota (BB-29).

> The Pennsylvania (BB-38) and the Arizona
> (BB-39); laid down 1913 and 1914 and both
> commissioned 1916, had geared turbines plus
> cruising turbines (4 shafts), and were the
> first with four triple-gun turrets.

> The New Mexico (BB-40), Mississippi (BB-41)
> and Idaho (BB-42) came with turbine-electric
> drive for 4 shafts. All three were laid down
> in 1915 and then commissioned Dec 1917
> through March 1919. Despite advantages of
> the drive during a major reconstruction
> 1931-33 they were refitted with geared
> turbines of nearly double horsepower (27,500
> SHP to 40,000 SHP).

> The Tennessee (BB-43) [laid down 1917,
> commissioned 1920] and California (BB-44)
> [laid down 1916, commissioned 1921] also
> came with four turbine-electric driven
> shafts.

> The final battleships built before the
> Washington treaty were:
> .....Colorado (BB-45) laid down 1919,
> commissioned 1923
> .....Maryland (BB-46) laid down 1917,
> commissioned 1921
> .....Washington (BB-47) laid down 1919
> **CANCELED 1922**
> .....West Virginia (BB-48) laid down 1920,
> commissioned 1923
> These also came with four turbine-electric
> driven shafts.

> Brian Norden

Brian: Thanks for the rundown of the battleships. Looking over your list has raised a question. USS Washington (BB-47) was laid down in 1919 and subsequently cancelled in 1922. USS West Virginia (BB-48) was laid down a year later (1920)and was commissioned in 1923. Wouldn't the Washington have been further along toward completion in 1922 than the West Virginia? Why didn't they cancel the West Virginia instead and continue with the Washington? There may be a logical explanation.

Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere about a battleship USS Arkansas. Or was this one gone before WWII started?

Thanks.

midlandblb@cs.com

.

> Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere
> about a battleship USS Arkansas. Or was this
> one gone before WWII started?

No, the Arkansas was around, but spent most of the war in the Atlantic. She was very very old in WWII. Her sister ship the Wyoming, I think was converted to an AA training ship, but I could be wrong.

wilkidm@wku.edu

Back from the museum and finaly getting around to RYPN.

I started the list with the New York class, not with the first Dreadnaughts, etc. The SOUTH CAROLINA class evidently was being designed before the British DREADNAUGHT, but was laid down later and completed later.

BB-26 SOUTH CAROLINA
........laid down 12/18/06
........commissioned 1910
........triple expansion engine

BB-27 MICHIGAN
........laid down 12/17/06
........commissioned 1910
........triple expansion engine
***

BB-28 DELAWARE
........laid down 11/11/07
........commissioned 1910
........triple expansion engine

BB-29 NORTH DAKOTA
........laid down 12/16/07
........commissioned 1910
........tubine engine
***

BB-30 FLORIDA
........laid down 3/9/09
........commissioned 1911
........tubine engine

BB-31 UTAH
........laid down 3/15/09
........commissioned 1911
........tubine engine
***

BB-32 WYOMING
........laid down 2/9/10
........commissioned 1912
........tubine engine

BB-33 ARKANSAS
........laid down 1/25/10
........commissioned 1912
........tubine engine

IN 1932 the Arkansas went to the Pacific as flagship of the Training Squadron, US Fleet. In 1934 returned to Atlantic as flagship of the Training Squadron, Sounting Force, In 1938 it joined Battleship Division 5, Atlantic Squadron. It was on the Neutrality Patrol and then escorted convoys. It particiapated at Omaha Beach, etc. Then to the pacific for Iwo Jima, etc. and finaily sunk as a result of the Bikini A-bomb tests.

Regarding Maryland class and the WASHINGTON. The ships were caught up in the Washington Treaty of 1922.

45 COLORADO.......laid down 5/29/19..lauched 3/22/21...commissioned 8/30/23
46 MARYLAND.......laid down 4/24/17..lauched 3/20/20...commissioned 7/21/21
47 WASHIGNTON...laid down 6/30/19..lauched 9/1/21....canceled 2/8/22
48 WEST VIRIGNA..laid down 4/12/20..lauched 11/19/21...commisioned 12/1/23

Due to the Washington Treaty of 1922 the WASHINGTON was canceled Feburary 8, 1922. Appearently, the slower to be worked on ship was canceled to meet the limitations of the Treaty. The Washington Treaty caused two of the LEXINGTON class battlecruisers to be completed as an aircraft carriers. It also caused the cancelation of BB-49 to BB-54 laid down in 1920 and also canceled on Feb 8, 1922.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

The paddlewheel carriers were the WOLVERINE (IX-64) and SABLE (IX-81). The IX-class vessels were "Unclassified Miscellaneous Vessel."

WOLVERINE was commissioned 12 Aug 42 after being converted from the overnight ship SEEANDBEE (lauched 9 Nov 12)that was taken in hand in early 1942. The ship was sold and then scrapped 1947.

SABLE was commissioned 8 Mar 43 after being converted from the overnight ship GREATER BUFFULO (lauched 27 Oct 23) sold and scrapped 1948.

The ships had inclined compund engines. The GREATER BUFFULO was one of two sister ships built in the early 1920s. I read that these two ships were built as paddlewheelers because the short shipping season on the Lakes did not warrent the investment in modern turbine engines.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net