From the EL Mailing list-

Hi folks,

I just got permission from Jim Wilson at the New York & Greenwood Lake
Railway to post this news:

The NY&GL has purchased former Erie E8 833 (currently painted as Conrail
4022) from Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal. It will be returning to New
Jersey early next year, and upon its return, it will be repainted into
its as-delivered Erie two-tone green. They are planning on running some
excursions with it next year, but plans have not been finalized.

Stay tuned! This historic unit is now formally preserved, and that's
great news!

- Paul

I find this quote interesting - it sounds more like the unit will be operated. As experience has shown, operating equipment does not equate to preservation.

Tom Cornillie

I agree that perhaps the term "preserved" is not accurate. However the NY&GL is a 2 mile long industrial switching railroad that owns (or leases) several historic Erie pieces. I think it is safe to say that 833 will be used sparingly.

IMHO, I submit the following as food for thought. Operation of historic equipment is preservation, but preservation of function rather than fabric. Preservation of function (within economic viability) is what took place during the equipment's "service life". I personally believe that if properly done, preservation of the experience through preservation of function is a better teaching tool than observation of static, stuffed & mounted artifacts. I've had experience with both forms of preservation over the years, as well as being active in living history. I've seen far more interest from people who've just handed me their excursion ticket or watched a battle reenactment than from those who heard my best museum tour.

I hope the new owner can offer the same
degree of safety and security for the unit
the previous one could.

This is great news on another, authentic Erie covered wagon hitting the rails again. Is its location close to the other two "Erie" E8s that ran on NJ Transit trips in the early 90s? Could it possibly team up with these?

I used quotes on the word Erie, because I seem to remember them being originally of Illinois Central or Southern RR heritage. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, none of us know the plans, so maybe we should not be throwing out all of OUR wishes. Since it is a switching railroad I doubt there is economic justification to have an E unit pull some cars on a 2 mile ride. Presumably, in my mind, they are hoping to organize a more significant ride.

A 2 mile run in the context of a Museum site with lots of other cars on display can be priced differently. That is, admission to the Museum, which includes a short ride.

Let's see what develops.

Bob Kutella

I agree with this. The point I am trying to drive home is that the fact that something that is preservation eligible is being used somewhere does not mean that it is preserved. Many railfans and preservationists seem to equate preservation with operation - which we should realize the fallacy of by now.

I consider preservation to occur where the item is owned by an organization that has, as its highest priority, the conservation of the item - with use and display for interpretive purposes as being secondary. The organization should also have a plan for how it will carry out and sustain conservation efforts.

The NYGL could carry out a great restoration of this unit - which is one of the very few surviving E-units not rebuilt for commuter service or Amtrak. Likewise, they could install an auxiliary HEP generator, cut ditch-lights into the nose, weld the nose door shut and make other sorts of modifications that would might make the unit more useable but definately diminish its historic integrity.

Personally, if I was NYGL I would have worked out an arrangement with URHS for their Erie painted E-units, one of which was modified by NJT for HEP.

Tom Cornillie

I think the other part of the equation is that the NY&GL guys are Erie fans if I remember right, so they have little use for Erie painted E's from the NYC and PRR when the real deal can be had.

A few operators of shortlines in the east are fans of specific lines. All those ex EL centuries on the D-L didn't wind up in Scranton by luck. ;-)

Rob

PS: Let us not forget to thank Mr. Levin for helping #833 make it this far.

Given the amount of 'preserved' railroad equipment 'in limbo' within the state of NJ at this very moment, I would be a bit concerned about adding an additional item.

The owner of the property in question has been engaged in some sort of conflict with NJ Transit for a bit-as he wants to get into the commuter business. Hmmm...

All things considered, it will hard for this outfit to match Mr. Levins' track record with respect to restoration/preservation.

DPK

I guess it depends on what your goals are. If you are interested in operation, then the URHS units are ideal since they have the desired Erie image and have the right technology. Remember too that the NY&GL already has an agreement for the use of a URHS nee-Erie SW-8. Finally, NY&GL passenger fleet is presently a nee-NYC PS 10-6 (coverted by its prior owner, Jack Desay, to a sleeper-lounge) and the GTW solarium observation Wabascon Lake.

Personally, I hoped that the 833 would end up at Steamtown. It is the only passenger diesel remaining that would/might have been serviced at the Scranton diesel shop - and they would have a practical need for restoring its steam heat capabilities. Finally, it would have been a good match for the Lake Cities consist (if it ends up staying in Scranton).

Tom Cornillie

(Prediction - in 10 years it will be possible to get married or have lunch where 833's two prime movers now sit)

You know.............

I was in touch with a party who was potentially involved in this latest transaction and said a variation of "I grew wary of the nay-sayers on RYPN."

At first, I was wondering what s/he was talking about. The folks here, however, seem to have risen to the occasion.

I've been in/on this locomotive in Conrail days, and let me tell you all, it's only by the sheer benevolence of certain members of past Conrail management that this loco survives today. There was absolutely no good reason for 833/4022 to survive past Conrail's acquisition of the two HEP-equipped ex-Amtrak, ex-PC, ex-PRR E8's. (You may know them better today as PRR 5809 and 5711, or "Levin's playthings".) Historic "fabric"? Surely you jest. Think in terms of the massive rebuild of the Alco PA's, and you'll have an idea of the rebuild/adaptations in question.

Potentially, Erie 833 could still run on the EL main line and/or with the Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society/Steamtown fleet. And we have Conrail, Bennett Levin, the NY&GL, and a bunch of other preservations to thank for that--not the nay-saying nitpickers.

I have never seen details on the mechanical history of 4022. To the best of my understanding, however, the work performed on it were primarily repairs in kind and carried out by Conrail forces. (I would be happy to receive correcting information.) This is, of course, in contrast to the remanufacturing done by contract rebuilders for Amtrak and various commuter operators (namely NJT and WSMTD) that constitute the majority of the population of existing E-units.

According to its former owner:

"As compared to 4020 and 4021, the 4022 (833) has the most complete original body with the original louvers, and battens, as well as the steam generator."



And, potentially it could end up as a roadside attraction or limping along a branchline like two other once mainline capable E-units that also benefitted from a number of lucky breaks. The fact is that as long as this unit (as with anything) remains private property it will be up to the owner to decide how to treat it. The onus is upon those who know (historians and enthuasiasts) to identify what is significant and work with the institutions that have the ability to ensure long term preservation.

Relevant to this are these quotes from its former owner:



And



Read the entire editorial at: http://www.rypn.org/RyPN/editorials/vieweditorials.asp?filename=041127031316.txt

Tom Cornillie

I see both sides of the story, and I think it depends upon the railroad involved. The NY&GL could easily be growing into a save'em by using'em operation like the D-L and SMS.

To wit, here are some examples of historic engines on for-profit carriers...

BM&RDG PRR E-8's - not a happy ending as Tom mentioned.

Juniata PRR E-8's - A happy current state, with owners that I would bet will see to a happy ending.

The D-L DL&W EMC - A happy current state, with owners that I would bet will see to a happy ending. Saved by the operator from scrapping. Restored, operable and clearly in a better place than what could have been.

The D-L Alco fleet - A happy current state, with owners that I would bet will see to a happy ending for the most significant examples. Probably saved at least 5 from the torch to date, maybe more, which means they have a life-span to allow for preservation -- an opportunity that wasn't there before.

Rutland RS-1 #405 - Had the Green Mountain not had a soft spot for its history, this RS-1 would be stuffed, chopped or scrapped like her sisters. Will she be preserved when done running? I would bet on it.

The SMS Baldwins - Wow. Where to begin? Will any of these girls go to museums eventually? Probably. But for now, SMS is saving them from the torch left and right. This extended life span will probably result in preservation opportunities that would otherwise be lost.

Who else has turned to historic or regionally relevant equipment giving them an extended life in revenue service and a chance at future preservation when a less historic locomotive would do?

The Susquehanna O&W NW-2... the SRR of NJ O&W 44-tonner... the SRR LV C-420...

Rob

I have been pretty open in my concerns about the state museum effort, but let's not overlook the fact that several shortlines in New Jersey are responsible for outstanding private restorations.

The Southern Railroad of New Jersey, the SMS Lines and the NY&GL all own, operate and lavish care upon historic Alcos, Baldwins and EMD's that would otherwise likely have seen the torch.

The owners of these lines have hand-picked locomotives they wanted to save, and they have invested heavily in them.

There are also some small museum efforts doing some pretty cool things. Pine Creek (which really isn't that small), North Pemberton, Whippany and others...

What has not worked out in NJ was the grand museum plan, and the equipment caught in that political tug of war has not fared as well as anyone would like. But one should also remember, some of that stock has been put to work by these same dedicated shortlines.

I totally get the desire to have a locomotive like #833 in a museum, but I would urge you not to disparage the NJ shortline operators as part of that desire.

To put a finer point on it. I have watched Baldwin's switch and a LV "yellowjacket" C-420 on the main in NJ because of private owners, not museums.


Rob Davis