A while back someone posted asking about the Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society’s restoration progress on the “City of Lima” one of the Pullman 10-6 sleepers purchased by the Nickel Plate Road in 1950. I thought it would be good to give a brief mention of what is going on.

A few weeks ago the American Association of Private Railcar Owners made the decision to move their annual convention from Houston to Scranton in September. ELDCPS (which recently became a member of AAPRCO) would like to have one of their cars at the convention. We decided that since the NKP 10-6 sleeper number 211, “City of Lima” is the nearest to operation that we would try to complete this car and have it in Scranton in September. Towards that end we have purchased 12 gallons of primer, 10 gallons of NKP blue, 6 gallons of “stainless steel” silver and 2 gallons of lettering silver, as well as normal and slow hardener. The paint is called UNO and is produced by Finishmaster. It is graffiti proof and should last for 12+ years. It is also VERY expensive, costing over $200 per gallon. Midwest Locomotive will be painting the car in the next few weeks with completion before July 15.

We will need to cover about 650 square feet on both sides. Add 10% for the lower trim panels, plus two or more coats. Midwest said the silver is a pain to shoot and get it right, and they want to have enough paint on hand, as there is some waste. Each gallon of UNO is supposed to cover about 350 square feet, give or take a little depending on the application system. Each surface gets primer plus 2 coats. Midwest uses a "pressure pot", and this has a little more waste. Plus, silver is a difficult color. Enough material must be applied to make certain of adequate coverage. Keep in mind, that except for the floor in the vestibule, all of the interior is in blue. Midwest wants two gallons of lettering silver. They said that they will have to paint the letter board the entire distance with enough thin coats to cover. Then they will mask out the letters and numbers. They will use a standard underbody black that they have in the shop.

Once the paint job is complete, an expert will simulate fluted sides by using the “shadow lining technique”. Once this is done the interior will get new carpet, reupholstering, and a really good cleaning. For now all of the existing bedding will be disposed of. Eventually new mattresses and bedding will need to be purchased.

If all of this is successful then a Nickel Plate Road passenger car will ride the Lackawanna rails as they did from 1950 until 1964. More importantly the first ELDCPS car will be “home”.

Over the next few weeks we will start posting photos as the painting commences. Since we have been raising money for this car separately from the money raised for 741 and 470, the funding to finish this car is really going to be close. If you would like to help see this car return to its Nickel Plate Road appearance, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to ELDCPS. We still have several special naming programs associated with NKP 211. Please visit our website http://www.eldcps.org/donations.html
Or you can send a donation to ELDCPS, P.O. Box 5821, Parsippany, NJ 07054. If we are successful in getting the car to Scranton in September, we will set up some opportunities for donors and members to come see the car.

Regards,
Tim Stuy
Secretary - ELDCPS

Tim:

When did the car lose its original fluted siding?

Thanks

Scott

When the Norfolk & Western sold the car to Illinois Central in 1965 the iC took off the fluted siding. Since many Pullman cars that retained the applied siding suffered serious rot the removal probably saved the car.

Dear Tim,

Did you ever investigate replacing the stainless steel fluting using the technique that BNSF used to apply fluting to their Pullman Standard cars which never had it? If so, what did you find out regarding the diffculty and costs of such a procedure?

Tom Cornillie

The BNSF method does work, but it requires routine maintenance to verify that water is not collecting between the fluting and the side metal. We may still ultimately do this.

Right now in addition to painting we are looking at a couple of innovative techniques to replicate the fluting. I hope to post a brief once we decide.

Dear Tim,

Thanks for that update. I look forward to seeing the breif. If you do end up writing such a piece, one thing that would be really useful is if you discuss the analysis of alternatives, including estimated costs, that you went through in arriving at your final decision. There are many other PS fluted cars that will require major repairs in coming years if they are to survive, and having a cost estimates on hand will assist others in their decision making process.

I am replying to Tim publicly because I would be most welcome in seeing information about other projects being written up as Briefs in this fashion. Back in the day there were books published on cost estimates of various railroad repair and improvement projects - it would be most useful to all of us to use RYPN to recreate that knowledge base.

Tom Cornillie

If one looks closely at these ex-IC, ex NW/NKP 10-6 sleepers that still exist, you can see that the IC actually re-sided these cars below the windows, once the fluting was removed. By the mid-60's, when the cars were acquired by the IC, the sheet steel under the fluting would already have rusted enough to make re-siding desirable. Removing the sheet steel covering the area below the windows would also have exposed any structural issues for repair before the rust got out of hand. Note also that these cars were built with unpainted stainless steel pier panels and the IC simply painted those over.

In addition to 'Topfuel's' post about the IC's rebuilding (and why it would hinder a repeat of the original rust problems associated with these cars) - - I think that much of the corrosion experienced with this group of cars originated with the fact that passenger cars were cleaned with rather corrosive solutions in an attempt to keep their paint looking fresh. I was recently reading American Railway Engineering proceedings from 1949 (IIRC) where it was identified that prolonged use would accelerate corrosion.

I think that if gentle cleaning solutions were used on NKP 211 most rust problems could be avoided with the reapplication of stainless steel. The problem could be eliminated completely if small holes were drilled on the bottom of the sheathing. The B&O musuem did this with many of their smooth-sided (and perhaps their C&O half sided cars too) cars several years ago - and were suprised at the amount of water that drained from them.

Tom Cornillie

As I mentioned several weeks ago, the Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society’s is in the process of repainting the “City of Lima” one of the Pullman 10-6 sleepers purchased by the Nickel Plate Road in 1950. Here are two photos of the car receiving the primer coat. We can now say that CNW 410 is gone and NKP 211 is on its way back. In the next few days the car will be in its NKP colors and lettering.

We are on schedule to have the City of Lima at the American Association of Private Railcar Owners annual convention in Scranton in September. If we are successful then a Nickel Plate Road passenger car will ride the Lackawanna rails as they did from 1950 until 1964. More importantly the first ELDCPS car will be “home”.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far to make this happen. Since we have been raising money for this car separately from the money raised for EL dining cars 741 and 470, the funding to finish this car is really going to be close. If you would like to help see this car return to its Nickel Plate Road appearance, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to ELDCPS. We still have several special naming programs associated with NKP 211. Please visit our website http://www.eldcps.org/donations.html
Or you can send a donation to ELDCPS, P.O. Box 5821, Parsippany, NJ 07054. If we are successful in getting the car to Scranton in September, we will set up some opportunities for donors and members to come see the car.

Regards,
Tim Stuy
Secretary - ELDCPS

I am happy to announce that as of today there is one more Nickel Plate Road passenger car in its NKP paint! As I mentioned several weeks ago, the Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society’s is in the process of repainting the “City of Lima” one of the Pullman 10-6 sleepers purchased by the Nickel Plate Road in 1950. Here are two photos of the car receiving the blue paint and lettering.

We are on schedule to have the City of Lima in Scranton in September. If we are successful then a Nickel Plate Road passenger car will ride the Lackawanna rails as they did from 1950 until 1964. More importantly the first ELDCPS car will be “home”.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far to make this happen. Since we have been raising money for this car separately from the money raised for EL dining cars 741 and 470, the funding to finish the interior work (new carpet, upholstery, etc.) and to move this car is really going to be close. If you would like to help see this car return to Scranton ready to operate in its Nickel Plate Road appearance, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to ELDCPS. We still have several special naming programs associated with NKP 211. Please visit our website http://www.eldcps.org/donations.html
Or you can send a donation to ELDCPS, P.O. Box 5821, Parsippany, NJ 07054. If we are successful in getting the car to Scranton in September, we will set up some opportunities for donors and members to come see the car.

Regards,
Tim Stuy
Secretary - ELDCPS

As of yesterday Nickel Plate Road sleeping car 211, the “City of Lima” is back! Midwest Locomotive was reinstalling the grab irons around the car this morning. The car is 98% painted. A little touch up work has to be done, as well as a large amount of wet-sanding. The silver paint was a pain in the neck to shoot, and there are a lot of streaks and marks where it dried too quickly. The painter estimates that it will take two weeks to complete sanding the car.

Here are is a photo of the car with the silver paint. Once the painting and COTS is complete, the car will head to St. Louis for interior work.

Please refer to my previous post if you would like to contribute to this restoration effort.

While studying the photo of the re-painted City of Lima, I've noticed something very curious. The B end truck (and I'm assuming the A end truck as well) is clearly not original to the car. It is a truck from an ex-Pennsy car. Note one of the bolster springs is a leaf spring. Also, the bolster anchor arrangement is also peculiar to PRR 6 x 11 ISH trucks. Any idea why the orginal trucks would have been changed out?

I asked our VP - Operations and this was his reply:

I have taken a closer look at the trucks under City of Lima. A very sharp observer has noticed that they are in fact type 41-NP-11. I have from the Pullman Company a Descriptive List of Cars from March 1961 - City of Lima, at that time under NKP ownership, shows to be equipped with 41-N-11 trucks. Both styles are of course, are based on the basic Pullman-Standard 41-N truck. However, the original 41-N-11 trucks were equipped with vertical shock absorbers, while the 41-NP-11 does not have this feature, but does have the internal coils springs with the small leaf. Closely examining photos of the car in IC service, shows the car equipped with the original 41-N-11s. So we can assume they were changed out either during or sometime after IC ownership. As we received the car in original C&NW paint, we can assume that the car was operated with the 41-NP-11s on C&NW, then UP. Why this would have been done may be for the reason that the original trucks were high mileage, and perhaps whoever did not want to repair them, and had a spare pair of 41-NP-11's that would work. If you have any photos of the Cynthia from the Michigan Railroad Club, or in MoP colors, take a look at the trucks, and see if they are 41-NP-11s or the original ones, 41-N-11s.

Mechanically, I think all we need to be concerned with is that the car is equipped with serviceable trucks, and they are based on the P-S 41-N truck. I never really noticed the difference, as when I was looking at them, I was more interested in their mechanical condition.

With a little research, perhaps we can determine who did it, or when they were changed out!

The trucks on EL "Phoebe Snow" coach 1318 are not the original ones either, and thankfully they are not. The P-S EL coaches nos. 1316-1325 were constructed with Budd Disk brakes. At some time, and I believe during M-N ownership, they were swapped with the same style of truck, but with clasp brakes, and these are a lot easier to maintain!

In looking at your website, there is a 1962 photo a NKP City sleeper that indicates that the car has Silver ends. Was there a change made to/from blue ends at some point in the car's lifetime? Likewise, the end lettering, which reads "City of Lima 211" for your car is not visible on the aforementioned photo (of car 212).

Many thanks,
Tom Cornillie

The City of Lima was repainted using stencils and diagrams provided by the NKP Historical & Technical Society. These were for the as-delivered paint scheme which is how we decided to have the car painted. I know that there were "unofficial" changes made in later years.