While I'm as excited as everyone else is at this development, I can find no confirmation on the Ohio Central or VMT website. What is the source of this information? I'd like to see a link to another web site. Thanks.

As a volunteer at the B&O Museum in restorations and operations I decided to register so that I can finally reply to these comments. It is extraordinarily frustrating to some of us as we undertake a massive effort to restore those pieces that still sit damaged in our roundhouse that are truly the last of their kind that people still constantly talk about the GG1.

No one disputes the historic significance of our GG1 and its famous ride, but I dare anyone to look at the Memnon, 217, 117, 600, 545, and Baggage Car #10, and tell me that the museum's priority should be the GG1.

I know that we should have a thick skin, but at this point I still see it as kicking a guy when he's down. I apologize that my first post here had to be somewhat negative, but I feel it had to be said.

I believe that the TRAINS MAGAZINE website had a headline stating that the Ohio Central had purchased the 763 from Roanoke.

Les

And from what I know, Trains got its information directly from a press release from the Ohio Central, issued by John B. Corns, currently an employee (I believe) or at least a high-ranking associate of the Ohio Central and a party well known to both the Trains staff and more than a few of us here. (He spent years as a company photographer for Chessie System and CSX.)

VMT is not likely to widely publicize what may well look to uninitiated outsiders like selling off the museum treasures to rich millionaires to use as playthings. No matter what the truth of the situation, that's the way it could be perceived or treated by an indifferent or hostile media.

I sense that a lot of fingers are pointing at me when someone says "kicking the Museum while it's down"........

As one of the principal complainers, let me rebut:

Over the decades, the B&O Museum has done many wonderful things, and even managed to recover from that roof collapse. But, at the same time, past management of the Museum had made a few tactical errors that have made things difficult for the current administration and crews:

*A GG1 was acquired from Amtrak by local fans and restored for placement at the "only" rail museum in the Baltimore/Maryland area at the time able to display it. Years later, said GG1 was declared "surplus to mission" and shipped off to Green Bay, Wisconsin--a slap in the face to the memory of the folks that saved it. Now, someone else saves a "notorious" GG1 but doesn't have a place to put it, so it somehow ends up in the B&O Museum's far back lot. For years. No place to go, not relevant to the B&O Museum. I'll blame the folks that gave 4876 a stay of execution, not the Museum.

*I personally participated in the salvage of a B&O E8 that was shipped off to the West Va. RR Museum--a locomotive that associates of mine had the chance to give the Museum for free, but rejected due to the horrible condition it was in. Somehow, past Museum management got it anyway--and took a credibility hit with my associates for it. So it got parked next to the scrap yard, and every last bit of copper that could be stolen was cut/burned out of it. It took us a couple hundred hours of labor to make the locomotive capable of being shipped to West Va. (I shoveled untold numbers of heroin needles out of holes I cut into the sidesheets), and in the process I begged the West Va. guys to reconsider--there had to be better ways to spend their monies and efforts.

These are only the issues I've brought up on this forum before. There have been other issues over the years, and I will concede many, if not most, of them are either beyond the capability of Museum management to handle (graffiti vandals, urban thieves, drug market next to part of their trackage, lawsuit-happy "mobility consultants" suing to demand wheelchair access to everything, heavy snow collapsing a roof, being in a mis-managed city, etc.). But there are other times when one can't help but roll the eyes at certain things.

Please don't think you're alone. We can--and have--raised similar arguments, dissent, etc. at places like CSRM Sacramento (a huge collection of ATSF diesels slowly rusting away), Steamtown (let's not "go there" today and say we did), East Broad Top (ditto--please!), Illinois Ry. Museum (too much stuff and maybe not enough warm bodies?), NRM Green Bay, RR Museum of Pa. (hidebound collections restrictions), you name it. Just be glad you aren't dealing with a certain Pacific or two........

As chief belly-acher regarding the famous GG1, let me simply state from my viewpoint that yes, your whole collection is priceless. I could never dispute that. Don't look at it as a kick in the pants, either. SImply understand that the GG1 is important to a sincere faction of rail buffs/historians, and was saved for preservation due to it's historic past. Watching the locomotive be carted off piecemeal, or simply rot into red sludge bothers us as much as needing to expedite your mission priorities are for you. I'd be thrilled to simply see it covered and locked up inside secure property for the present.

I don't think it is negative, but maybe because I agree with you. A GG-1 (even THAT GG-1) over the Memnon? No way.

Here's heresy... I would gladly support turning all the GG-1's not currently in the state of Pennsylvania into razor blades if it meant the proper preservation of locomotives and rolling stock from the first 75 years of American railroading.

No offense to any GG-1 owners out there, just saying a handful is enough -- and the most significant ones are in PA already.

Rob

The Port Huron Turntable is still in place off Griswold in Port Huron. As Aarne indicates, it has some issues, has now track or power to it, and hasn't had either since about 1996 or so.

Port Huron GTW facilites suffered the same slow decline of many places around the country, although much of it made it to the 1990's. The Roundhouse was torn down in 1961, West Summit Tower in 1972, The 1891-built Tunnel (every bit as beautiful as Durand's, and part of why it was saved) in 1975, Tappan Tower in 1985, etc.

With the opening of the 2nd Tunnel, much of what left in Port Huron died, including the Car Shops (leased to PDS Railcar, foreclosed in 2000, then sold off, burned twice, now gutted), Freight House (torn down in 1994), Yard Office (torn down in 1999) and much of the yard operations. About all that is left is the shell of the Car Shops buildings and part of the maintenance yard office.

As far as the turntable, I was there this past Monday, and to my knowledge, nothing has been done lately in terms of anything except looking at it, as it looked pretty much the way it is now for about the past 10 years. Happy to know it will be preserved in some fashion, however.

TJG

I have to answer that, even late, since I'm the one who gave the museum the money to move the 4876 from NJ to Baltimore, probably the single largest financial contribution I'll ever make while I'm alive. I'd hate to think that all of the time effort and money to get the URHSNJ to donate it to the B&O museum was for nothing, and it would've been better off staying in Jersey! There was a small group of us centered around the Washington, DC Chapter, NRHS that wanted to see it brought as close to DC as possible, and the B&O museum was as close as possible. It's really a shame that we in the preservation community couldn't come up with some big bucks donor like Air and Space found to build a nice, large enclosed annex to the Smithsonian's Railroad exhibit somewhere in the DC area. I thought that the B&O Museum was supposed to be partnering with the Smithsonian on things like that. They do have several DC area pieces there already, like the Washington Terminal wreck crane, and the St. Elizabeth's Hospital saddle tanker. I would think that the runaway GG1 would be in that catagory, especially since they put the one they had, 4890, on long-term loan to Green Bay.

Well as promised here are some very recent pictures of the 763 now under shed in the Virginia Museum of Transportations back lot. After close to 20 years of being displayed in the weather the last couple of years it's been under cover, out of direct weather. Enjoy the pictures.

First we have a picture showing Jerry Jacobson & Bev Fitzpatric shaking hands after the announcement of the sale.



Next we have pictures of the 763 recently in 2006 under the shed in the VMofT back lot from the fireman's side:









Now we have the 763 on display back in the 1990's when it was not under cover from the other side:













Now all the way back to 1988 here we see the 763 when she looked a little better and faceing the west defferent than today:



Hope you enjoyed the pictures, I've lived in the Roanoke Valley my whole life and do what I can to keep up with the Preservation of equipment, though currently with the US Military over seas, I do what I can to provide what I know but with time limited by Patrols I do what I can! Hope to be home soon I miss the Trains!

The B&O is a "Smithsonian Affiliate." The Affiliations is an interesting program. Prospective affiliates file an application, including a facilities management report establishing their capabilities to care for artifacts, and pay a $2500 annual maintenance fee. In return they get priority access to loans of artifacts from the Smithsonian collection and the right to use the Smithsonian Affiliation status in their marketing.

From the point of view of SI, affiliations is a creative way to get collections that would otherwise be in storage out onto display and get their name and brand circulated. A cynic or realist might point out that this is a win-win from SI's perspective--they reduce their collections care costs, get their name out, and get paid for the privilege.

While the program has real substance and real advantages, I just wanted to point out that you can look at it as a creative way for SI to externalize collections care costs onto other institutions -- it is NOT a way for SI to add costs to its cost structure by undertaking joint capital projects or pumping major bucks from its own budget (which is way too small to maintain its own facilities) into facilities controlled by others.

Just want folks to understand the nature of an Affiliations agreement and what it does or does not offer.

As to the Washington collections remaining at B&O, I think the argument can be made from a collections management point of view that St. E's was a B&O customer and coal destination, and B&O was a part-owner of Washington Terminal, so both those artifacts arguable have direct B&O ties and illustrate part of the B&O story in a way a GG-1 does not.

I am truly heartbroken over the frustration donors like Paul must feel in this situation. I offer these thoughts in no way as an argument; just trying to supply additional information or context where I have it.

Paul,

I agree with Eric, it is heartbreaking to hear your story which raises extremely important issues.

It is unlikely #4876 would have faired better in NJ, as evidenced by the rest of the collection from whence she came. Very few GG-1's ended up in truly good long-term housing.

I think the post that brought up the Memnon comparison was pointing out that since the collapse, everything came into a different focus. Whether or not there was are argument pro-#4876 before the collapse, it changed after. And now, it is an unhappy situation for many parties.

Which brings me back around to the topic of a few weeks ago about preservation vs. restoration by private owners. Is a piece better off at a museum with limited funds but long-term vision or in the hands of a private owner with funds but shorter term security.

Unfortunately for GG-1's, there's not much of a chance one could ever run again, thus they are relegated to space-consuming static displays.

Outside of #4800 and one or two production units, I can't see the need to divert dollars to preserving other GG-1's out of national importance - especially if it is a choice vs something like the Memnon. But that's also somewhat of a strawman, as obviously there are ways to seek money that don't pit one against the other.

One solution to some of these dilemmas would be a national collection of locomotives similar to the UK. One GG-1, one Big Boy, the E-7, the General (name your significant piece here) etc could all be protected and funded, even if displayed at satellites. That might give rise to more independent projects saving a more diverse variety of stock if they new that they need not take on a mega display like a G or a Big Boy since the national collection already has one.

Interesting, and sad, thread...

Rob

A few thoughts. One, logically, the logic
thread should be obtain preserve restore.
But it hasnt worked out that way for a lot
of RR stuff. It has been said correctly
by others that this generations job
is to get EVERYTHING under cover.
I think this is getting to be the thing
in the UK at this point. I was reminded
of this by the fine pictures of the Berk
in the Vir Trans Mus. Beginning to
deteriorate but the rust has been
arrested by the roof! May it always
be so.
The second thing is their actually are
many types or even classes of
locos , here and abroad, that are
"over represented". Nobody really
can accept that fact we have "too
many Berks" or "too many GG-1s".
Actually the steamers are probably
held in higher "esteem" than the Gs.
Much of this is just emotion, not
history but Ill scream if you light
up the torch to send any steamer
to china in small pieces. If a G goes
back to atoms, Ill be less worried.
Not right but hey Im human.

National museum, national policy?
Great idea, not likely to happen.

Some random thoughts from my "preservation cave"--

A phrase I used with an author of a TRAINS article about FPA-4s a few years ago, was "Preserved out of proportion"-- that equally applies to UP 4-8-8-4s and PRR GG1 locos. A G in, oh, let's say....Dallas? A cornfield in Illinois? A sidetrack in rural NY State dairy farm country? Does that really make interpretive sense? Yes, we turned one down 20+ years ago-- and they ran in our small state, too.

National collection? Let's remember that Great Britain is about as large as Pennsylvania; and US railroads and rolling stock/locomotives were much more diverse that that on the UK railroads.

"Our Generation's" job was to get the stuff away from the scrapper, and now is to get as much as possible under cover so it gets no worse. Yes, there was overcollecting, and the reckoning for that is already underway. Unfortunately, it seems a few "innocent bystanders" will suffer along the way--- for example, two absolutely priceless NYCS relics at a power plant near Albany, NY.

OK, time to crawl back in to the deeper recesses of the preservation cave, and await the flamethrowers....

Howard P.
Curmudgeonville, CT

Sadly, it has turned out that finding the money to save stuff from the scrapper (or convince the various railroads, commuter agencies, etc. to donate it) was only a small part of the true cost of these relics. The thought always was that volunteers would start needle brushing, welding, painting - you name it. Well they do, but never in the quantities for what's out there. We all know that a rationalization is coming, but I think it may take another generation for it to shake out.